Glendale/West Valley Development Thread

[PHX NATIVE 929]

Yes, both new stadiums would have ideally been built in the central city.

However, the location of UofP will never be a problem for the Cardinals. Number one, NFL teams are guaranteed to turn a profit before even one ticket is sold (primarily due to the league's TV contracts and profit sharing on merchandise sales). Second, people are willing to drive longer distances a handful of times a year on Sundays to watch football games/tailgate/etc. Now that the Cards are no longer playing under the mid-day heat at Sun Devil Stadium with fans frying on backless metal bleachers, they'll continue to draw at or near capacity.

The Coyotes struggle financially for a host of reasons, including:

-Playing the 4th fiddle pro team in a non-traditional hockey market
-Arena located too far for East-Valley would-be ticket holders to drive 40+ nights a year (and often fighting freeway rush hour traffic during weeknight games)
-Poor lease agreement with city of Glendale
-Inability to collect parking revenue
-Weak Corporate Sponsorship
-Poor Arena Naming Rights Revenue


The Cards actually play 10 games minimum at the stadium each year. Two preseason plus eight regular season. This year, they also hosted two playoff games, giving them 12 total home games. Take 12 games x roughly 65,000 people and you're talking about 780,000 people this year alone. Between the Cards, Coyotes, concerts, etc, I'm sure you're looking at over 100 event nights each year between UofP and Jobbing.com. Westgate is far from a huge succes story, but in no way is it a disaster. That stretch of the 101 still has plenty of room for growth. The new Dodgers/White Sox ballpark is set to open and coming online sometime soon will be a new facility for USA basketball. The casino is another steal.

I wish the stadiums had been in downtown Phoenix so all 4 teams would be there, but Glendale was wise to jump into the game. The East Valley was asleep at the wheel.

[CANUC]

Originally Posted by glynnjamin

^You're right, you could. Football is a ridiculous sport in that sense. They play too few games for the true good teams to shine and the mediocre teams to fail. It is all about luck. A 16 game sample size is so small and, when compared amongst others, it fails to reveal who the good and bad teams really are. Over a longer season, you would actually be able to determine who is a good, mediocre, or bad team. Over 16 games, you can't say much. Then you get into the playoff situation and you leave every game up to chance with a one-and-done format. In a best of three series, would the Cardinals have proven to be a better team? Maybe. Does the entire season come down to one interception that was run back for 100 yard touch down? Yes. That is the flaw with football.

^

Forget all the other Westgate stuff. Luck huh? That’s what wins football games? 16 games are not enough? Do you have any idea the physicality that is involved in preparing, training and playing this sport? You Sir with that comment have proven that you know nothing about the sport of football and as such should refrain from commenting on anything related to the sport. I played football as a kid and in high school. I help coach my sons Pop Warner team – who by the way only plays 9 games per season – and let me tell you the notion that at the professional level 16 games is not enough or that games are won because of luck or that bad teams cannot be weeded out is down right laughable. Let me explain to you what is involved at the ‘kiddy’ level. Preconditioning is every Saturday beginning in July, preseason begins in August with workouts Monday through Friday for three weeks, regular season begins in September with workouts three days a week and runs to November and if your team makes the playoffs that runs into the end of November. Now imagine the professional level. What, do you think those players take off the pads on Sunday go home and kick their feet up for the rest of week? Let me “qualify” it for you. How would you like to get into a fight once a week for sixteen weeks with sparing matches during the week? Do you think that half way through those sixteen fights you might have a good idea of how good or bad you are? Do you think a truly bad fighter would make it to the championship or a good fighter wouldn’t? Why don’t they play more games? Because the human body can only take so much punishment, that’s why. Yeah, lets demand that the NFL play 162 games like baseball. When its all over the fans can go on the field and pick up the body parts.

[Vicelord John]

so now we are onto football being a ridiculous sport?

[plinko]

So now two of you have bagged on the East Valley for being 'asleep at the wheel' with regard to the Cardinals stadium, but you both realize that it was the City of Phoenix that both caused the snafu in the East Valley and then f*cked up their own deal and let Glendale slip in? Phoenix had the damn thing declared an FAA hazard when it was to be built in Tempe! Why the city then decided it needed to be built in the Garfield neighborhood instead of 7th/Jefferson just east of the Bob is beyond me.

I honestly don't really care where the football stadium is located, but the lack in infrastructure and interesting destinations in the West Valley was a travesty during last year's Superbowl. That's why the stadium needed to be located near future transit, existing retail and urban infrastructure, etc. No matter what Westgate might become, it'll always feel manufactured.

The arena thing for the Coyotes is far worse. If they couldn't play downtown, then South Scottsdale (at Los Arcos) would have been a wonderful push in getting Scottsdale to actually agree that there is a part of their city below Osborn Road. They might have even gotten in on the lite rail. Talk about a blunder.

I give kudos to Glendale for pulling off a steal (I was actually doing a couple of public works projects in Glendale at the time and the city upper staff were thrilled). The reality though is that Glendale isn't much better than Chandler or Gilbert in terms of spreading out their own city services and playing developer roulette in trying to steal the most potential sales tax dollars from other cities in the area. Doesn't exactly make for a remotely interesting environment. Lowest common denominator. And good luck making transit work at a viable level out there.

Maybe it will work. But the place will never have any soul.

[Vicelord John]

Originally Posted by plinko

Why the city then decided it needed to be built in the Garfield neighborhood instead of 7th/Jefferson just east of the Bob is beyond me.

Makes sense to me. Would have saved fuel in police helicopters, reduced subsidized housing costs, and lowered overall crappiness.

If Garfield didn't exist, I'd be perfectly fine with it. Even those crappy empty condos up around Roosevelt. Build a football stadium.

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by Vicelord John

If Garfield didn't exist, I'd be perfectly fine with it. Even those crappy empty condos up around Roosevelt. Build a football stadium.

Thats pretty ridiculous, Garfield has TONS of potential. Those houses are really cute and it could become something like the Willo district if it was ever gentrified. The problem of course is Phoenix lacking enough urban pioneers to make that a reality.

[glynnjamin]

^ By "Urban Pioneers" you mean "people who aren't broke or buried under a mortgage, right?

[Vicelord John]

Originally Posted by HooverDam

Thats pretty ridiculous, Garfield has TONS of potential. Those houses are really cute and it could become something like the Willo district if it was ever gentrified. The problem of course is Phoenix lacking enough urban pioneers to make that a reality.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

There are so many infill apartments and empty lots that it will never be a premier neighborhood. Take a drive through it (armed of course) and you'll see. It will always suck butt.

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by Vicelord John

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

There are so many infill apartments and empty lots that it will never be a premier neighborhood. Take a drive through it (armed of course) and you'll see. It will always suck butt.

Why are empty lots a problem? Thats potential! Only a person w/ out much vision would think Garfield will be cursed forever. Many comparable Western cities (Denver and San Diego come to mind) have great historic neighborhoods adjacent to their downtown area, most of Phoenixs currently nice historic hoods are nearer to midtown.

Things, especially cities, change a lot over time. Look at the Roosevelt neighborhood say 20 years ago, it was about the same as Garfield is today, now, its much better and improving all the time. If the City and the community acted together over a period of sometime Garfield could be turned around.

For instance, running either a shuttle bus or modern streetcar through the neighborhood could do wonders. Something like this maybe. A shuttle like this would give you connections to:

• The Evans Churchill area
• Condos on Roosevelt
• Neighborhood favorite eatery, the Welcome Diner
• That community center or whatever it is on 12th/Roosevelt
• The Elementary school on Roosevelt
• The retail hub at 16th/Roosevelt
• Health Clinic
• Edison Park
• St Lukes
• Retail/Jobs along 12th St
• Light Rail
• The beautiful church on Washington
• higher end condos along 9th St
• Verde Park
• The school (?) on 9th/Polk
• The North End of the BioScience campus

Now thats just one thing that could be done to spruce up the area. Capitol improvements to Verde & Edison parks, or improving the planter strips, or passing an ordinance to remove chain link fences all could be done to help improve the area. Imagine what 500 shade trees alone could do for the area.

I guess I probably misspoke when comparing it to Willo earlier, I dont ever think Garfield will by 'high end' or 'premiere' , but theres no reason it can't be a charming, safe, working class neighborhood like it was originally intended to be.

You've got to dream/think big, like Daniel Burnham said "Make no little plans. They have no magic to stir men's blood and probably will not themselves be realized."

But now we're WAY off the topic of Glendale. Maybe a mod can move this to the Phoenix thread if it keeps on.

EDIT: Haha I just noticed my circulator bus map for the Garfield hood looks a LOT like a pistol, perhaps appropriate

[Vicelord John]

Originally Posted by HooverDam

Why are empty lots a problem? Thats potential!

you're right, it is great potential, but it is potential to build new builds or more subsidized apartments. There are infact so many empty lots that if everything were to be built up to fill those lots, there would be more new builds than historic homes. It would probably lose its historic designation if that were the case.

Face it, that neighborhood is a shit hole... a dirty un-wiped one. I hear helicopters over there on probably an every other day basis.

[glynnjamin]

Went out to Camelback Ranch on Sunday (huge Dodger fan!) and took some photos. For those of you who never get out there or want to see it, you can see all of the photos at http://picasaweb.google.com/glynnjam...eat=directlink

A few highlights:

[Vicelord John]

is that the canal?

[HooverDam]

Nice photos Glynn, it looks like it'll be nice once the trees mature. Though we've got to get you off that Dodgers bandwagon and rooting for the good guys (the D'backs)

[glynnjamin]

Originally Posted by Vicelord John

is that the canal?

No, they have a lake using reclaimed water that flows through the middle of the complex. It is quite large. The wash is directly east of the site. Also, it would have been awesome to see them (or anyone) integrate the canal instead of turning a blind eye to such a great semi-natural resource. How would Venice look if they built roads and backed up the houses to the canals?

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by glynnjamin

No, they have a lake using reclaimed water that flows through the middle of the complex. It is quite large. The wash is directly east of the site. Also, it would have been awesome to see them (or anyone) integrate the canal instead of turning a blind eye to such a great semi-natural resource. How would Venice look if they built roads and backed up the houses to the canals?

Welp the Canalscape project sounds like its for you then! Long linear parks along the canals, with developments oriented towards the canals where the streets meet the water.

[PHX31]

How are you a huge dodger fan Glynnjamin? it was you talking about flying the D-backs flag out of your patio a year or two ago. Or are you a fan of both teams, and whichever one does best that's your team of the moment?

[glynnjamin]

^My condo has two stories and two patios. The downstairs patio is my wifes, the upstairs patio is mine. My wife is a D-backs fan. The flag was outside her patio. She has Dbacks things out there. The upstairs patio has Dodgers things.

So in answer to your question, I'm the Dodger fan, the wife is a Dbacks fan.

EDIT: Thanks John...now they'll never get me.

[Vicelord John]

As easy as it is to figure out where you live from searching past posting history, I wouldn't really be advertising what you own and how much it is worth.

[glynnjamin]

^Who is going to steal that stuff? I mean really...good luck selling it in this economy. The insurance I could claim is more than I would get on the open market right now. You think if I were to list what my car is, someone would steal it? I'm tired of making payments on it and would really like it to end up in Mexico, in a firepit, at the bottom of a chasm.

[glynnjamin]

Thanks for stalking me John, I appreciate it. Makes me feel loved.