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  #21  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2017, 7:25 PM
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
Then a lot of what gets described as gentrification isn't.

In many cases, gentrification replaces chain stores with (more expensive) boutiques and restaurants.
Or it can be a progression: Low margin, low revenue marginal Mom/Pop businesses get replaced by chains but as the mean income level in the area rises, the chains ultimately give way to high end boutiques.
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  #22  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2017, 7:34 PM
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Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
Is rent control not a thing in most of the US? Here, rent on a tenant can't increase beyond a set amount tied to inflation (a vacant unit however can be rented at whatever amount the landlord chooses), so the way gentrification tends to play out is that if and when a lower-income person leaves their apartment they'll be replaced by someone wealthier paying a now higher rent, but they won't be displaced if they stay put. That said, there are definitely some shady landlords out there who will try their best to evict older tenants paying below market rate rents.
Rent control is illegal here if Florida. I believe the state banned local cities from implementing rent control rules. There is only rent control in a few states in the US (NY and California and a few others).
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  #23  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2017, 8:27 PM
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Rent control is illegal here if Florida. I believe the state banned local cities from implementing rent control rules. There is only rent control in a few states in the US (NY and California and a few others).
Rent control in California has slowly been eroded away. In the LA area, it used to be that Santa Monica and West Hollywood had really good rent control laws.

But then in 1995, the Costa-Hawkins Act barred rent caps on buildings built after 1995.

But very recently a ballot initiative has been filed that would repeal Costa-Hawkins: http://ktla.com/2017/10/23/rent-cont...ot-initiative/

Here's a one-hour documentary about gentrification and rent control (or the lack thereof) in California: https://www.kcet.org/shows/city-risi...adcast-episode
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  #24  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2017, 11:53 AM
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What is gentrification? It's an urban renewal process that people around the age of 20 with liberal arts degrees don't understand in any way. Unless you or anybody else wants to curtail basic freedom of movement, there's nothing anybody can do about gentrification. It's also hardly a new phenomenon. Suddenly everybody has a problem with slums and ghettos improving? Well, no need to worry because as one neighbourhood is rebuilt, another is being torn apart by the people leaving the slum.

Yeah, it's a shame that it's difficult to afford a home in a gentrifying neighborhood. Hell, it's difficult to even own one thanks to the way we tax properties. On the other hand, it's nice to not need a shotgun under your pillow and bars on your windows. Of course, that's somewhat irrelevant considering that it's difficult for poor people to own a home in any neighborhood. That's why we classify them as poor, isn't it? Trying to stop a neighborhood from gentrifying is a fool's errand: If you succeed, what have you got? You've got a slum and why does anybody want that? Sane people don't want that but they won't tell the government to give poor people more money, they'll tell the people with any money to stay away and keep it out of "their" neighborhood. So, as I said, young social justice "warriors" don't have a clue what they're fighting for or what it is they think they're trying to accomplish by keeping a neighborhood poor.
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Last edited by Spocket; Nov 4, 2017 at 12:06 PM.
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  #25  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2017, 12:13 PM
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^ People often move into gentrifying neighborhoods because they can't afford established neighborhoods. Where are those people supposed to go?

There will always be someone with more money than you. That's life. Deal with it.

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Originally Posted by sopas ej View Post
Rent control in California has slowly been eroded away. In the LA area, it used to be that Santa Monica and West Hollywood had really good rent control laws.

But then in 1995, the Costa-Hawkins Act barred rent caps on buildings built after 1995.

But very recently a ballot initiative has been filed that would repeal Costa-Hawkins: http://ktla.com/2017/10/23/rent-cont...ot-initiative/

Here's a one-hour documentary about gentrification and rent control (or the lack thereof) in California: https://www.kcet.org/shows/city-risi...adcast-episode
This is also a subjective statement. I would call it an oxymoron.
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  #26  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2017, 12:23 PM
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^ People often move into gentrifying neighborhoods because they can't afford established neighborhoods. Where are those people supposed to go?

There will always be someone with more money than you. That's life. Deal with it.
Who are you talking to here? Did you actually read what I wrote? If that comment is aimed at me then I suspect you didn't.
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  #27  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2017, 1:16 PM
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Chris's phraseology:

Gentrification, from the Latin meaning "vacation at Starbucks".

Lets break it down:

"Gen" meaning generation millenial
"Tri" meaning triple shot macchiato
"fication" meaning vacation at starbucks

Gentrification

So anytime you see a bunch of millennials at Starbucks overpaying for substandard coffee, on a Saturday, with their headphones, and Apple laptops cackling away, you might be in a gentrified area.

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  #28  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2017, 2:10 PM
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Originally Posted by cannedairspray View Post
Safer with more amenities is pretty universally considered "better".

The gentrification outrage was always off my radar until Spike Lee started to complain about it. The hypocrisy of it really made me laugh hard and provided some quality entertainment.
i’ll say. young spike lee grew up middle class in a neighborhood that you could say to some extent that his family helped gentrify — for black folks! i still love spike though no matter what he throws out there that doesnt stick (yes like tawana brawley, yadda), so he always gets a pass. he is kind of a prickly dude, but i always think his heart is in the right place and he is a fantastic film maker.
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  #29  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2017, 2:24 PM
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Who are you talking to here? Did you actually read what I wrote? If that comment is aimed at me then I suspect you didn't.
I was agreeing with you.
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  #30  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2017, 2:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris08876 View Post
Chris's phraseology:

Gentrification, from the Latin meaning "vacation at Starbucks".

Lets break it down:

"Gen" meaning generation millenial
"Tri" meaning triple shot macchiato
"fication" meaning vacation at starbucks

Gentrification

So anytime you see a bunch of millennials at Starbucks overpaying for substandard coffee, on a Saturday, with their headphones, and Apple laptops cackling away, you might be in a gentrified area.

That's an dated 90's - 2000's definition. Good indicator of gentrification are areas that have even more expensive coffee bars that are full of people with odd facial hair growth, sleeved up, flannels and tight jeans with rips in the thigh area. They might serve alcohol but all charge an insane amount for a cup of regular coffee -- not the Starbucks $2 coffees, but more in the range of $5!

They'll all have similar decor of re-claimed wood with white subway tile backsplash with a dark grout. -- almost forgot the Edison bulb light fixtures!
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  #31  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2017, 9:42 PM
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Originally Posted by mrnyc View Post
i’ll say. young spike lee grew up middle class in a neighborhood that you could say to some extent that his family helped gentrify — for black folks! i still love spike though no matter what he throws out there that doesnt stick (yes like tawana brawley, yadda), so he always gets a pass. he is kind of a prickly dude, but i always think his heart is in the right place and he is a fantastic film maker.
The ends justify the means.

Yeah....I'll never get on board with looking the other way on serious issues because of someone's political stance.
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  #32  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2017, 9:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Sun Belt View Post
That's an dated 90's - 2000's definition. Good indicator of gentrification are areas that have even more expensive coffee bars that are full of people with odd facial hair growth, sleeved up, flannels and tight jeans with rips in the thigh area. They might serve alcohol but all charge an insane amount for a cup of regular coffee -- not the Starbucks $2 coffees, but more in the range of $5!

They'll all have similar decor of re-claimed wood with white subway tile backsplash with a dark grout. -- almost forgot the Edison bulb light fixtures!
Yes, thankfully people have moved on from Starbucks and their crappy burnt coffee.
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  #33  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2017, 2:42 PM
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Yes, thankfully people have moved on from Starbucks and their crappy burnt coffee.
The good thing about purchasing a Starbucks coffee is that even their part-time employees are eligible for a free college education at Arizona State University with their college achievement plan. Anybody could get a job at Starbucks and get their free college education, healthcare, 401k and up to 5 weeks of paid vacation for salaried employees, oh and a free lb of coffee each week.

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In a first of its kind collaboration with Arizona State University (ASU), we’re offering all part- and full-time benefits eligible U.S. partners full tuition coverage for every year of college to earn a bachelor’s degree. Partners receive support from a dedicated team of coaches and advisors, 24/7 tutoring on a variety of subjects, and a choice of more than 60 undergraduate degrees through ASU's research driven and top-ranked program, delivered online.
https://www.starbucks.com/careers/college-plan
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  #34  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2017, 5:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Spocket View Post
What is gentrification? It's an urban renewal process that people around the age of 20 with liberal arts degrees don't understand in any way. Unless you or anybody else wants to curtail basic freedom of movement, there's nothing anybody can do about gentrification. It's also hardly a new phenomenon. Suddenly everybody has a problem with slums and ghettos improving? Well, no need to worry because as one neighbourhood is rebuilt, another is being torn apart by the people leaving the slum.

Yeah, it's a shame that it's difficult to afford a home in a gentrifying neighborhood. Hell, it's difficult to even own one thanks to the way we tax properties. On the other hand, it's nice to not need a shotgun under your pillow and bars on your windows. Of course, that's somewhat irrelevant considering that it's difficult for poor people to own a home in any neighborhood. That's why we classify them as poor, isn't it? Trying to stop a neighborhood from gentrifying is a fool's errand: If you succeed, what have you got? You've got a slum and why does anybody want that? Sane people don't want that but they won't tell the government to give poor people more money, they'll tell the people with any money to stay away and keep it out of "their" neighborhood. So, as I said, young social justice "warriors" don't have a clue what they're fighting for or what it is they think they're trying to accomplish by keeping a neighborhood poor.


It's not about keeping a neighborhood poor, it's about keeping it affordable. Nobody should have to move into five different apartments in the course of 5 years because every year that person has had to deal with 30-50% rent increases.

"Gentrification" should equal revitalization, not displacement and jacking up prices. But that's the nature of capitalism, I suppose.

By your definition, gentrification is no different than the urban renewal programs of the 1960s which flat-out demolished everything old and built everything new and pricey from the ground up.
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  #35  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2017, 6:12 PM
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gentrification is a market process, that's it. cheap real estate becoming desirable and increasing in value. want to get in on the bottom floor, follow the lesbians and artists. we've all had this conversation before but to be a renter who seeks affordability, you must be a nomad. expecting to have cheap rent in a neighborhood that is increasing in value is very optimistic but not realistic. there are plenty of philosophical conversations that can take place when it boils down to it, capitalist frameworks and socially driven wants aren't too compatible.
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  #36  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2017, 6:21 PM
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Originally Posted by sopas ej View Post
It's not about keeping a neighborhood poor, it's about keeping it affordable. Nobody should have to move into five different apartments in the course of 5 years because every year that person has had to deal with 30-50% rent increases.

"Gentrification" should equal revitalization, not displacement and jacking up prices. But that's the nature of capitalism, I suppose.

By your definition, gentrification is no different than the urban renewal programs of the 1960s which flat-out demolished everything old and built everything new and pricey from the ground up.
If it's "affordable", that means rents are not going to be high enough to justify significant upfront investment in the (re)development of a property in a transitioning neighborhood. The problem is that there is not enough non-profit or federal/state/local agencies stepping in and developing affordable housing in these upcoming areas. Not projects but subsidized apartment buildings that look no different than any other private urban complex. Private developers are not going to build affordable housing not without a sizable amount of subsidies from the government.
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  #37  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2017, 6:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Sun Belt View Post
The good thing about purchasing a Starbucks coffee is that even their part-time employees are eligible for a free college education at Arizona State University with their college achievement plan. Anybody could get a job at Starbucks and get their free college education, healthcare, 401k and up to 5 weeks of paid vacation for salaried employees, oh and a free lb of coffee each week.


https://www.starbucks.com/careers/college-plan
Great. But I'm not buying bad coffee to help put people through college. They could also just pay employees more.
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  #38  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2017, 7:20 PM
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to be a renter who seeks affordability, you must be a nomad.
Well said. If you're comfortable where you are because it's getting "better", you're gonna pay more than you did when it was "worse". That's just life.

I'm not sure why rent is supposed to be exempt from the simple realities of life.

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Originally Posted by Sun Belt View Post
The good thing about purchasing a Starbucks coffee is that even their part-time employees are eligible for a free college education at Arizona State University with their college achievement plan. Anybody could get a job at Starbucks and get their free college education, healthcare, 401k and up to 5 weeks of paid vacation for salaried employees, oh and a free lb of coffee each week.
If I wanted to subsidize someone's tuition, I'd do it for a family member.
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  #39  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2017, 8:14 PM
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
Yes, thankfully people have moved on from Starbucks and their crappy burnt coffee.
their crappy burned coffee. anyway, starbucks stock jumping sixfold over the past ten years hardly means people have moved on. quite the opposite.

even if they are indeed peaking at home, who cares, their asian market expansion goals are impressive. still a good upward stock to have.


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Originally Posted by jtown,man View Post
The ends justify the means.

Yeah....I'll never get on board with looking the other way on serious issues because of someone's political stance.
except just remember that by not getting onboard the downside is nothing. absolute silence. meaning the stories spike lee tells don't get told. so its not about ignoring, but you gotta take the good with the bad. if you get caught up in when he is wrong and can't handle it or don't agree or whatever i certainly understand, he is not a filmmaker for everybody that is for sure.
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  #40  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2017, 8:20 PM
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Gentrification is a complex issue but the main problem with it is that it basically amounts to people with money (which in our society is a proxy for power) being able to control and push around those without. Most of us accept that those with money are able to buy nicer things. Fancier cars or computers, more exotic vacations, snazzier clothes, etc. but when it comes to being able to force other people who are just living their lives and minding their business to give up things they already have and that are extremely important to them, then people take issue. It isn't necessarily that there's more "demand" for change compared to keeping the status quo, but rather that the people who are demanding change are more powerful. You could have a home and community that means everything to someone be turned over to a wealthier person who has looked at 20 different locations and could be really happy in 5 of them but has decided on this one because... it's a two minute closer drive to the yoga studio.

Yes the world has endless stories of the powerful dominating the weak, but the whole point of our modern concepts of justice and fairness are to avoid this. Gentrification is just a tricker issue since all the actions are indirect through faceless, impersonal "economic forces" rather than one person doing something directly to another. But just because something is better hidden doesn't change what's fundamentally occurring.

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Originally Posted by Pedestrian View Post
The market judges them better by being willing to pay more for them.
This statement is saying, "People who can pay more for what they prefer have fundamentally more important preferences than those who can afford to pay less."

Being "willing" to pay more and being "able" to pay more are not the same thing, but the market doesn't differentiate. Having more money doesn't automatically mean you have better taste, judgement, or anything else. It's often just as simple as different groups have different cultures and different groups have different wealth levels. So the "market" is biased toward the culture of the group with greater wealth.
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