The Existential thread

[vid]

Ah, yes. The old "others are worse so stop asking for us to be better" argument. I know it well.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

People should really read the Amnesty International and Cato Institute reports for various countries before posting on here.

Chances are they've at least read the one Amnesty International report that pans Doug Ford, does that count...?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by vid

Ah, yes. The old "others are worse so stop asking for us to be better" argument. I know it well.

You'd fare better if you stopped using "just as bad" rhetoric.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Chances are they've at least read the one Amnesty International report that pans Doug Ford, does that count...?

Took me a few seconds to click in, but...

[vid]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You'd fare better if you stopped using "just as bad" rhetoric.

But even if two people are equally bad, does that mean neither has to improve?

We're racing to the bottom. We should be racing to the top. But the top isn't where the money is, is it? China and America didn't get rich through altruism.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by acottawa

And it’s long distance wars rarely went well.

And how far is Guam from the continental USA?

[333609543]

I believe that acottawa was only referring to European powers. The US has very obviously had no trouble projecting its power far beyond its borders.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by vid

But even if two people are equally bad, does that mean neither has to improve?

We're racing to the bottom. We should be racing to the top. But the top isn't where the money is, is it? China and America didn't get rich through altruism.

They're not equally bad though. That's where we disagree.

Look at what happens at protests in front of the Washington Monument. Then look at ones that happen in in Tienanmen Square.

I agree with you that we should do better. I'll take Denmark, Sweden and Norway as examples of what humanity can do to advance the cause of itself. The United States is closer to those countries than China.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by vid

But that means you don't side with America. Why are you so anti-American? They've neither expressed regret nor killed the least.

Because we live in a situation where our economic system is complicit in killing and oppressing hundreds of millions and no one and nothing can be held responsible or stop it and now it's going to kill the whole world and we don't give a shit because we like driving our SUVs.

It's not binary. I don't agree with the US all the time. The shades of grey between the black and white. I don't think China is the embodiment of all evil either - but I very much lean towards the United States.

I don't believe that our economic system is perfect. I think a mixed-market economy is the best solution to human problems. That involves a mix of capitalism and state intervention. That mix should be decided by the people of a given country, not imposed from above by the Supreme Leader.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by vid

Africa seems to have about as much of a choice in what China does to it as it did in what the UK and France did to it. At least with Chinese influence in their countries, they get to continue leading their countries. China isn't establishing Chinese-supremacist colonial states in Africa like UK did.

If China lets them lead them lead their countries democratically, by all means.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by 333609543

I believe that acottawa was only referring to European powers. The US has very obviously had no trouble projecting its power far beyond its borders.

Thanks

And also, the US never had to deploy forces from the continental US. When they re-took the island from Japan they could send ships from Hawaii and bombers from the Marshall Islands (both American possessions).

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Thanks

And also, the US never had to deploy forces from the continental US. When they re-took the island from Japan they could send ships from Hawaii and bombers from the Marshall Islands (both American possessions).

And this also describes how the UK conducted it's business during the 19th century. They had a string of island possessions that they could use for replenishment and supply for the British Navy all over the world.

It wasn't the British Army that allowed the UK to rule the world in the 19th century. Pax Britannica was a creation of the Royal Navy.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by vid

Africa seems to have about as much of a choice in what China does to it as it did in what the UK and France did to it. At least with Chinese influence in their countries, they get to continue leading their countries. China isn't establishing Chinese-supremacist colonial states in Africa like UK did.

This article has an interesting perspective on that.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.forb...nists-did/amp/

I also don’t think it’s a coincidence that poaching is increasing in Africa as Chinese companies move there. The West may be polluting the environment too but China strikes me as the most heartless culture when it comes to animal cruelty. Look at their tiger and bear farms. Plus they are single handedly wiping out sharks, elephants and rhinos for useless chinese medicines, trinkets and ‘delicacies’ That culture really disturbs me in how little it values life. That same mindset applies to their treatment of humans.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

And this also describes how the UK conducted it's business during the 19th century. They had a string of island possessions that they could use for replenishment and supply for the British Navy all over the world.

It wasn't the British Army that allowed the UK to rule the world in the 19th century. Pax Britannica was a creation of the Royal Navy.

And China has no such infrastructure.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by acottawa

And China has no such infrastructure.

Well, China is building a whole whack of artificial islands in the South China Sea to bolster their outrageous territorial claims............

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Well, China is building a whole whack of artificial islands in the South China Sea to bolster their outrageous territorial claims............

Which is of no geopolitical or military value and pointlessly antagonizes its neighbours.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by wave46

I don't think any nation with the exception of maybe Iceland can claim complete innocence on the whole 'murdering' thing. But yes, if we're keeping score, I tend to side with the ones that murder the least, or the ones the express regret for their wrong actions.

It's true that Iceland was uninhabited when the settlers came, and thus there were no native inhabitants that were conquered or murdered.

But then again, the Norsemen and Vikings who settled Iceland themselves did also have slaves from Ireland and Scotland.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by acottawa

And China has no such infrastructure.

I'd recommend reading up on the Chinese String of Pearls along the Indian Ocean.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String...(Indian_Ocean))

tl;dr China essentially has Government-run ports in Sri Lanka and Pakistan. They also have the 21st Century Silk Road Initiative, increasing land connectivity between Europe and China via Central Asia.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by wave46

We're racing to the bottom. We should be racing to the top. But the top isn't where the money is, is it? China and America didn't get rich through altruism.

Then again, what country got rich through altruism?

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by wave46

We get so blinded by our never-ending gaze on America (and some of the admittedly dumb things their government does) that we ignore the atrocities of others - in this case, China.

It's a disappointing shame that Canadians aren't more in tune with the rest of the world.

Probably also that Canadians think that they are able to identify with, critique and influence the US a lot more than they can for other countries, especially big, foreign, undemocratic ones.

That's why you often see US protest movements show up strongly north of the border (eg. protesting the Iraq war, or protesting Trump) but rarely as much protests by Canadians over China, Russia's policies etc. For better or worse, the US is held to a different standard as a place that is familiar to us and also one that claims to represent the "west" or is the biggest nation that represents the west.

Seems like it's mostly diaspora communities who fled from and disliked their old regimes that protest the other big powers (eg. the Chinese dissidents who dislike China's government, Tibetan refugees and Falun Gong people against China's human rights abuses, Ukrainian-Canadians who dislike Russia during the Crimea thing) but most Anglo Canadians have their gaze focused on the US.

For China, there were some protests by westerners like Americans and Canadians back not too long ago (eg. the Free Tibet movement, anti-sweatshop labour movements) but these seem to have fallen by the wayside after the 90s and '00s in favour of the "make nice with the rising superpower who's got a lot of money" sentiment.