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View Poll Results: Based on options for Broadway Corridor Study, what is your preferred choice?
BRT: Commercial to UBC 18 5.45%
LRT A: Commercial to UBC OR Commercial via VCC to UBC 26 7.88%
LRT B: Main St. to UBC AND Commercial to UBC 14 4.24%
RRT: Commercial to UBC OR VCC to UBC 226 68.48%
COMBO: RRT to Arbutus/LRT to Main St via Arbutus 36 10.91%
BUS: Enhanced Bus Service for all buses to UBC 10 3.03%
Voters: 330. You may not vote on this poll

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  #8081  
Old Posted May 18, 2017, 4:01 PM
theKB theKB is offline
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Putting a fee on developers is like trump saying the mexicans will pay for the wall by taxing their imports, at the end of the day the consumer is out of pocket.

Also the notion that property tax doesn't affect everyone is wrong. People paying rent still cover the property tax expense as do all the businesses paying triple net leases. The only way is property tax or a levy on electricity/gas as they already do as everything else is completely avoidable if you try hard enough. Gas taxes are dumb and frankly should be eliminated and moved somewhere else for the simple fact that it is avoidable.
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  #8082  
Old Posted May 18, 2017, 4:02 PM
aberdeen5698 aberdeen5698 is offline
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Originally Posted by twoNeurons View Post
Areas around the broadway corridor should have higher taxes... like ALL other areas within x km of a station. Have it graduated into zones. 1km from station, 1–5km from station. 5+ km from station. B-Line, Seabus, or SkyTrain line could apply
There's no need to put in a bunch of arbitrary boundaries like this. Since market forces value properties close to a Skytrain higher, and since tax is proportionally allocated across all properties based on those values, the properties benefiting most from Skytrain are already paying more taxes. This is as true in residential areas as it is in commercial ones.
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  #8083  
Old Posted May 18, 2017, 4:19 PM
swimmer_spe swimmer_spe is online now
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Originally Posted by theKB View Post
Putting a fee on developers is like trump saying the mexicans will pay for the wall by taxing their imports, at the end of the day the consumer is out of pocket.
Doesn't matter what they go for, the residents will pay for it. It is just a matter of where.
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  #8084  
Old Posted May 18, 2017, 4:35 PM
Bdawe Bdawe is offline
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Originally Posted by CanSpice View Post
Suppose I'm a developer. What's more likely?

"I've been hit by a development fee because I'm building a tower next to a SkyTrain station. Sure, I'd love to make less money because of where I'm building."

"I've been hit by a development fee because I'm building a tower next to a SkyTrain station. Let's take that fee, divide it by the number of units, and add that to the prices so we still make the same profit."

"I'm looking at building a tower next to a SkyTrain station. Eh, I don't want to get hit by a development fee so I'll look more closely at building one slightly farther away."
"I've been hit by a development fee because I'm building a tower next to a skytrain station. I and everyone else in the development business should offer less for land that now has less profit potential"

Taxi incidence is always a fun thing.
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  #8085  
Old Posted May 18, 2017, 6:04 PM
nname nname is offline
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Originally Posted by CanSpice View Post
Suppose I'm a developer. What's more likely?

"I've been hit by a development fee because I'm building a tower next to a SkyTrain station. Sure, I'd love to make less money because of where I'm building."

"I've been hit by a development fee because I'm building a tower next to a SkyTrain station. Let's take that fee, divide it by the number of units, and add that to the prices so we still make the same profit."

"I'm looking at building a tower next to a SkyTrain station. Eh, I don't want to get hit by a development fee so I'll look more closely at building one slightly farther away."
"I'm looking to make the most profit for my business. Eh, it's too expensive to build near a SkyTrain station and housing price may not increase as much due to the introduction of a new tax. It is now more profitable to build giant homes in the middle of nowhere when land is still relatively cheaper and fee is low, so this is what I should do and hopefully the price will be much higher by the time I've finished."
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  #8086  
Old Posted May 18, 2017, 9:51 PM
Hooknose Hooknose is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanSpice View Post
Suppose I'm a developer. What's more likely?

"I've been hit by a development fee because I'm building a tower next to a SkyTrain station. Sure, I'd love to make less money because of where I'm building."

"I've been hit by a development fee because I'm building a tower next to a SkyTrain station. Let's take that fee, divide it by the number of units, and add that to the prices so we still make the same profit."

"I'm looking at building a tower next to a SkyTrain station. Eh, I don't want to get hit by a development fee so I'll look more closely at building one slightly farther away."
There is a fourth alternative ... Pay 10,000 per unit fee, not build 40,000 dollar parking spots, save people 10,000 a year in lease, insurance and gas costs by not buying another car, and put 200,000 on the unit.

You make more money.
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  #8087  
Old Posted May 18, 2017, 10:05 PM
swimmer_spe swimmer_spe is online now
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Originally Posted by Hooknose View Post
There is a fourth alternative ... Pay 10,000 per unit fee, not build 40,000 dollar parking spots, save people 10,000 a year in lease, insurance and gas costs by not buying another car, and put 200,000 on the unit.

You make more money.
I think there are laws requiring the parking. So, really what needs to be changed is the local bylaws requiring as much parking.
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  #8088  
Old Posted May 18, 2017, 10:20 PM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
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You can get a parking relaxation from the city in exchange for building "car share" only parking spots, which are owned in perpetuity by the CoV (I think).

A free market solution of "no minimums" on parking is good in theory, but that passes the cost along to the government to provide public transit to pick up the slack, which virtually never pays for itself, so the developer should pay something, whether it's a dedicated fee that goes to transit capital/operating, or whatever.
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  #8089  
Old Posted May 19, 2017, 12:50 AM
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VancouverOfTheFuture VancouverOfTheFuture is offline
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you don't want building parking, look at the West End, it is a mess. it is a dumb idea to not require parking. the units wont get cheaper and there will just be more West End issues all over the city.
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  #8090  
Old Posted May 19, 2017, 1:43 AM
Bdawe Bdawe is offline
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Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture View Post
you don't want building parking, look at the West End, it is a mess. it is a dumb idea to not require parking. the units wont get cheaper and there will just be more West End issues all over the city.
The west end has plenty of building parking. A lot of it goes unused. The West End is a mess, like anywhere else that is a parking mess, due to underpriced street parking.

Your comment is counter to the bulk of the academic work on the issue
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  #8091  
Old Posted May 19, 2017, 2:11 AM
retro_orange retro_orange is offline
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Originally Posted by Bdawe View Post
The west end has plenty of building parking. A lot of it goes unused. The West End is a mess, like anywhere else that is a parking mess, due to underpriced street parking.

Your comment is counter to the bulk of the academic work on the issue
This was true not only of the tower I once lived in the west end but my building in east Van now, especially if they are near a major transit corridor. In my place now only my building manager and 2 other cars park in my parkade in my 45 unit building. Many of these older apartment buildings with underground parkades have them mostly empty because they are not set up to accommodate a separate area for short term parking with a machine to pay.

This would require the parkade gate to be moved further inside the parkade and section off the back area for resident parking for security and parking space stealing issues, possibly with a middle area for neighbors who need monthly parking but have none in their building. This is common in new developments but rarely retrofitted in older buildings. After the initial investment of re-configuring the parkade it is a good new stream of income for older buildings. I'm kinda surprised more parking companies haven't proposed this to building owners, especially in the west end.

Even my moms older condo tower in downtown New Westminster (with a zero rental policy) has the parkade half empty. Though to be fair all 2 bedroom units have 2 spaces and one beds a single space.

Last edited by retro_orange; May 19, 2017 at 2:24 AM.
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  #8092  
Old Posted May 19, 2017, 2:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Bdawe View Post
The west end has plenty of building parking. A lot of it goes unused. The West End is a mess, like anywhere else that is a parking mess, due to underpriced street parking.

Your comment is counter to the bulk of the academic work on the issue
but the issue in the West End is that there will always be cars on the street overnight. since many buildings have too much and many have absolutely none. then look what happens when the price is raised, all hell breaks loose. and you cant honestly tell me prices decrease when less parking is built; that just doesn't happen. no matter how much parking is built, the demand of units make the price what it is and in our housing market, a parking spot wont change it.

yes the prices were way under valued, but there should be no reason for cars to be parking on street in the first place. if a house, walk up, or tower they should have ample parking so that streets can be used for transportation.

if you take away the requirement for parking, unit prices stay constant, now there needs to be extra fees ontop of the same-priced unit. instead of having something like Yaletown, you get something like the West End. you are requiring people to pay an extra fee instead of providing what should be provided.

but we are getting off topic...


the PST was the best option, but that boat has sailed so now it will be property tax and the gas tax most likely. i doubt they will be charging developers because "that will just raise prices" which is a flawed argument in Vancouver's housing market.
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  #8093  
Old Posted May 19, 2017, 2:25 AM
retro_orange retro_orange is offline
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previous post
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  #8094  
Old Posted May 19, 2017, 4:03 PM
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Jebby Jebby is offline
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
Ditto a proximity tax. For rentals, the landlord pays and the tenants are safe;
In what world do you live in in which landlords don't pass on the cost to tenants?
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  #8095  
Old Posted Yesterday, 11:40 AM
Hooknose Hooknose is offline
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
Doesn't matter what they go for, the residents will pay for it. It is just a matter of where.
A sany economist will tell you, all taxes and levies, without exception, end up in the final price.

There is no way, ever, of taxing a producer along the way in any fashion that does not simply shove that tax onto the final price.

The real discussion around rapid rail transit is how much of a price difference does proximity to a RR station make ... and how much of that difference should be captured to pay off some of the cost of the RR system in the first place.

It is a logrithmic die off. Double the distance from a station is not half the value, perhaps not even a quarter.

So you cannot properly recover the cost from just the new line.

This also does not take into account the network effects on existing property owners. For example

I own a condo in the new Brentwood development. (I know they are not done yet, so work with me on this one, please). In front of me is the Millenium line. Now the line gets extended to Arbutus, which crosses the Canada line.

The value of my condo in Brentwood just went up, even though there is no construction anywhere around me.

Adding to the RR network, anywhere along the line, means the value of properties within 500 meters of any station goes up.

It is not simply that a few landowners along the line get a bump, it is that everyone along the line does.

The wealth creation effects of putting in more RR is for everyone.

So more BS complaints about how it gets funded, please. We all pick up a few dollars once it is built.
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  #8096  
Old Posted Yesterday, 10:27 PM
Bdawe Bdawe is offline
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Originally Posted by Hooknose View Post
A sany economist will tell you, all taxes and levies, without exception, end up in the final price.
This simply is not true. A great many introductory economics courses familiarize students with the concept of tax incidence, and explain by way of straight-forward supply & demand analysis how taxes can burden buyers and sellers to variable degrees in different markets
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  #8097  
Old Posted Today, 12:54 AM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
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Originally Posted by Hooknose View Post
A sany economist will tell you, all taxes and levies, without exception, end up in the final price.

There is no way, ever, of taxing a producer along the way in any fashion that does not simply shove that tax onto the final price.
Totally false. The seller and buyer will share in any costs the seller has to pay. That's basic supply/demand curve economics.
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  #8098  
Old Posted Today, 2:26 AM
Feathered Friend Feathered Friend is offline
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Get back on the rails

Ah supply and demand, that's what I've never understood with this project. There's clear demand, and yet the three levels of government can't get their act together to supply it.

Seriously though, it feels these discussions are best left to the general transit discussion, if not the politics thread. I get that feelings are high on this (like the viaducts), but do we really have to keep having the same discussions over and over?
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