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  #2241  
Old Posted Mar 8, 2017, 12:26 AM
lio45 lio45 is offline
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Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
I don't know your sex but I'm going to assume your male because it seems everyone on here is (apologies if I'm wrong).

Unaccompanied young men, regardless of race, are generally always accorded a higher level of suspicion. It's an unfortunate reality that terrorists, criminals, and general shit-disturbers are disproportionately more likely to be single 20-something guys.

One of the most fascinating security screenings I went through was when departing Israel at Tel Aviv Airport. There, before you even get to the check in desk someone talks to you for about 5 minutes and they assign you a "threat level", from 1 to 9, based on how risky they think you are. Then they literally put a sticker on your passport indicating what your number is, and once you're done checking in and go through security, they actually have separate security lines for each number, with higher numbers having more rigorous screening. They're also extremely blunt about their reasonings; they don't do the whole "excuse me, you're picked for a random screening.." bullshit, they literally say to your face "you're young / brown / black / whatever so you're getting extra screening."

The security itself is also more logical. They don't do stupid things like forcing you to take off your shoes (which began solely as a knee-jerk reaction to a single incident involving a person who hid a bomb in their shoe). The main component of the security there is being talked to by an agent with psychology training who identifies your mental state using microexpressions, with the logic being that a terrorist is highly unlikely to be calm going through security.
That's indeed fascinating (and also refreshing that they're being honest about admitting they're not going to "randomly" pick the 95 year old lady in a wheelchair for frisking)... If I may ask, what was your threat level?
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  #2242  
Old Posted Mar 8, 2017, 12:31 AM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
That's indeed fascinating (and also refreshing that they're being honest about admitting they're not going to "randomly" pick the 95 year old lady in a wheelchair for frisking)... If I may ask, what was your threat level?
I was Level 5. That's actually the lowest level an unaccompanied young male can get in most circumstances, from what I hear.
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  #2243  
Old Posted Mar 8, 2017, 12:35 AM
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The issue however is if you have a Muslim name you will automatically get into the negative side for extra screening. There is no positive feedback as you have been automatically slotted into the negative side. Therefore the feedback phenomenon only works one way.

So for many people that I know (my brother and I included) who have never had any issues, get randomly selected every time on the way there and on the way back. The bags also get randomly selected on the way there and on the way back by DHS.

My brother still goes several times a year and has for years now and still gets randomly selected (I just stopped going). Even with a nexus, his bags get randomly selected every time both ways. Seems too much to still be random doesn't it.
For years and with a NEXUS pass? Maybe there's a certified terrorist out there who has the same full name as him or something? Otherwise, that focus on him does look like a waste of effort on the part of the border officers.

If he always passes without problems in the end, I believe this still will help him eventually (compared to someone in an identical situation who's trying to enter for the first time in a while), given that his record will show as blemish-free after many crossings even in spite of his Muslim-sounding name.

To reuse the Tel-Aviv Airport example, being young, male, and Muslim are all factors that contribute to raising your "threat level" all else being equal, while having passed successfully through this entry point already in the past many times contributes to lowering it... but it still may be high overall, if you check other of their profiling boxes -- which for the record are there for a reason.

It's unfortunate, but it's hard to avoid. It would be a total waste of resources to devote equal attention to old Japanese ladies in wheelchairs as to young single Muslim males just for the sake of making sure we avoid profiling.
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  #2244  
Old Posted Mar 8, 2017, 12:37 AM
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Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
I was Level 5. That's actually the lowest level an unaccompanied young male can get in most circumstances, from what I hear.
Just for fun, do you dare to try to achieve at least Level 6 next time? See how high you can manage to get
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  #2245  
Old Posted Mar 8, 2017, 12:41 AM
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I'm seriously willing to consider this, if you are

A hiking getaway seems more simple than a Boston/NYC one, are you into hiking? In fact, my group of friends sometimes plans these hiking trips in the White Mountains, you could just come along then. That would actually be realistic.
Officer: "What is your reason of travel today?"

Us: "We are both involved in an online group and we want to see how easy it is to cross the border."

Officer: "Yeeeeaah... You're gonna have to exit the vehicle, sir."
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  #2246  
Old Posted Mar 8, 2017, 12:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post

One of the most fascinating security screenings I went through was when departing Israel at Tel Aviv Airport. There, before you even get to the check in desk someone talks to you for about 5 minutes and they assign you a "threat level", from 1 to 9, based on how risky they think you are. Then they literally put a sticker on your passport indicating what your number is, and once you're done checking in and go through security, they actually have separate security lines for each number, with higher numbers having more rigorous screening. They're also extremely blunt about their reasonings; they don't do the whole "excuse me, you're picked for a random screening.." bullshit, they literally say to your face "you're young / brown / black / whatever so you're getting extra screening."


I should ask my friend what his was - he mentions how intensely he got questioned at the Tel Aviv airport but not many specifics. Apparently a single male going to Israel on a whim for 1.5 weeks if you aren't Jewish / have family there is a bit of a red flag. Especially if you spend some time in the West Bank that isn't part of any official tour (assuming those exist). In reality he's just a huge history / geopolitics nerd and wanted to see everything for himself.
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  #2247  
Old Posted Mar 8, 2017, 1:10 AM
lio45 lio45 is offline
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Originally Posted by Aylmer View Post
Officer: "What is your reason of travel today?"

Us: "We are both involved in an online group and we want to see how easy it is to cross the border."

Officer: "Yeeeeaah... You're gonna have to exit the vehicle, sir."
Let's also make sure we grow long beards before that day, and have a few copies of the Quran in the vehicle.

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  #2248  
Old Posted Mar 8, 2017, 1:35 AM
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Originally Posted by niwell View Post
I should ask my friend what his was - he mentions how intensely he got questioned at the Tel Aviv airport but not many specifics. Apparently a single male going to Israel on a whim for 1.5 weeks if you aren't Jewish / have family there is a bit of a red flag. Especially if you spend some time in the West Bank that isn't part of any official tour (assuming those exist). In reality he's just a huge history / geopolitics nerd and wanted to see everything for himself.
They don't actually tell you explictly what your threat level is, they just mark it on your passport. They put a sticker on the front cover with an ID tag, and the first digit of the ID tag is your threat level. When you go through, they look at your sticker and point to which line you go through. Unless your friend knew about the system beforehand (like I did) or was paying attention to the numbers on his sticker, he wouldn't remember what it was.

The system is not a secret, though. Not even an open secret. If you ask any official at the airport, they'll explain to you what it is. It's just not made obvious to the unfamiliar.

As for entering the West Bank without being on tour.. very easy to do, actually. Most people who visit Israel do so on tours but there's no restrictions on independent travel. Areas of the West Bank that aren't part of the Palestinian autonomy areas--the so called "Area C" (the settlements and most of the open land) are effectively treated as though they are part of Israel proper. Within the "Seam Zone"--the portion of Area C that is inside the West Bank barrier--the West Bank border is really just a line on a map. You can cross it without ever knowing.

That's interesting that he got heavily questioned, though. He must have been maybe a 6 or a 7. (From what I gather 8 and 9 are only given to really serious cases). What's interesting is my story isn't much different from your friend. I was there for a week, unaccompanied young male, and while I am technically Jewish under Israeli law because of my Jewish grandmother, I didn't actually say that to any of the guards. Didn't want to look like I was trying to play some sort of "hey I'm one of you, so treat me better" card.. especially because I don't actually have any way of proving it. I suppose I could have brought my grandmother's rabbinical birth certificate and a chain of long form birth certificates from her to me but that's a lot of hassle.

Last edited by 1overcosc; Mar 8, 2017 at 5:34 AM. Reason: spelling blargh
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  #2249  
Old Posted Mar 8, 2017, 1:45 PM
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Originally Posted by drew View Post
Bar none, the easiest way to cross the border is with your wife and young kids. We usually do road trips once a year, and often into the States. I find the American border guards quite pleasant - usually. Surprisingly enough, it's their Canadian counterparts who are usually the assholes when we eventually cross back into Canada.
I usually drive through the US with wife and dog to Southern Ontario once a year and fly/connect through it once more in that timeframe. Maybe even throw a shopping visit in there, so 2/3 times per year total. Never have any issues, but I'm a generic-brand white, 40's male with no legal history. Border guards are always pleasant... my only hiccup is sometimes with US border agents in airports... I always seem to get the super-stern looking guy who throws me a curveball by cracking a small joke while completely deadpan.

My wife, conversely, can be standing next to me in the airport security queue and always get yanked out for random screenings.
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  #2250  
Old Posted Mar 8, 2017, 2:34 PM
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I've never been turned back or even delayed at the U.S. border, but they almost always do ask fairly pointed questions about where we're going and why. I've also crossed in the U.S. with my kids without my wife, and they didn't bat much of an eye. Also crossed once with friends' kids and there was no issue either. (We were ready with a note of permission but did not need it.)

The Canadian guards are as one would expect more preoccupied about what we bought. There are nice ones on both sides, aggressive ones and friendly ones.

A couple of years ago the kids and I accompanied my wife down to the States for a business trip. We drove and crossed at the Thousand Islands.

We got totally grilled by the American border guy, especially my wife about her business trip even though she had official Canadian government ID and the name of a fairly senior government official in the States that she would be meeting with.

One of the lines of questioning actually went like this (I've changed the details).

- So you're meeting whom?

- John Smith, head of the New York Agricultural Inspection Agency.

- You're meeting about what?

- Hmmm... agricultural... inspections...

- What about 'em?
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  #2251  
Old Posted Mar 8, 2017, 2:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
The Canadian guards are as one would expect more preoccupied about what we bought. There are nice ones on both sides, aggressive ones and friendly ones.
I remember it being a lot worse on that first point... family trips to NH in the fall when I was a teen-ager. Lining up at the border when returning and being told to pull over, in the pouring rain and partially pop-up our tent trailer so the agent could make sure we weren't bringing back too much booze, and getting us to dig around in said trailer (which wasn't easy to crank up) to find a single missing receipt for a $20 item. Thankfully they aren't that OCD now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack
One of the lines of questioning actually went like this (I've changed the details).

- So you're meeting whom?
- John Smith, head of the New York Agricultural Inspection Agency.
- You're meeting about what?
- Hmmm... agricultural... inspections...
- What about 'em?
I suspect he was just nosy. What other job can you do that?
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  #2252  
Old Posted Mar 9, 2017, 1:41 AM
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I haven't crossed the border in a few years but have had some unpleasant crossings nut nothing horrible other than waiting.

A few examples - my friend who was Pakistan-born got his Canadian passport after his citizenship wanted to go do some shopping since his sister and her family often do it. I think it was his first time with me anyway going across, we hand over the passport to some older chubby white guy with a southern sounding accent, he looks at my friends passport and goes so Mr Mohammed when did you last go to Pakistan? in a really rude condescending tone, he never sent us inside but he was just rude about it.

One time my friend and I crossed at the Aldergrove crossing to avoid the lineups at the other 2, anyway we get told to go inside the office, it was early on a Sunday morning. WE went and sat on the seating that was all joined, anyway one of the seats was all ripped and gross looking so we left it empty between us and the woman working there who told us to go inside says loudly from the counter, we were about 12 feet away, says did your friend not shower today? and we are like what? she goes why aren't you sitting together? we were like what? we were just like the seat is gross or whatever, but the freaking power trip this woman was on and her whole tone and way she asked questions were just weird.

Another time 2 of my friends and me were driving to California and we get to the border and they send us inside and took away our passports and made us wait. about 20 minutes later some other guy looks at us waiting and in a stern loud voice calls us over and asks us what are you doing here? and we are like the other guy took our passports, apparently, the guy went on a break, so this guy found our passports and let us go but again making us wait and talking down to us until he realised his colleague had flubbed up.

Another time me and my friend were going to go to bellingham for some shopping as many people do. The border guard says whats the purpose of your trip blah blah blah. We say we are going to bellis fair to go shopping. The guy says You guys don't have stores in Canada? what are you going to buy? we say maybe some shoes. He says, you can't buy shoes in Canada? after some more stupid questions like that he waved us through.

Man more examples I could give but won't but just some of the border guards are just total power-tripping, most are nice and had a few who never even looked at our passports just waved us through. I don't know why but the white border guards are the most trouble.
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  #2253  
Old Posted Mar 9, 2017, 3:50 PM
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Thanks to the US government deadlock, Americans are about to lose the ability to travel to Europe without a visa.

The EU has a "visa reciprocity" rule where foreigners can only be eligible for visa-free travel if their governments in turn grant visa-free travel to citizens of all EU countries.

The USA violates this rule as it requires citizens of Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, and Croatia to get visas to enter the US.

In 2014 the EU warned the USA that it would enforce visa reciprocity if the USA didn't change. And now.. the EU has decided to impose a hard deadline.

If the USA does not allow visa-free entry to citizens of Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, and Croatia by the end of April, American citizens will lose the ability to enter the EU without a visa.
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  #2254  
Old Posted Mar 9, 2017, 4:33 PM
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Being a pretty clean cut white guy with family in tow, I've never had a problem entering the US. But I have to admit, with the reports of a more bellicose approach being taken by US border guards I'm starting to wonder if I should be looking elsewhere for vacations.

It's not so much a matter of principle as it is one of sheer financial risk... if I shell out a few thousand dollars up front to rent a condo for a couple of weeks on VRBO or airbnb or wherever, the last thing I need is some power tripping border guard finding a reason not to let me in and then being out all that cash.

Now that being said, I find entering the US by air and using preclearance in Canadian airports to be a far easier time than crossing at a port of entry on a highway. For whatever reason they never really seem to ask me any questions at the airport besides the basic where are you going, reason, etc., so I'm still fairly confident when flying to the US.
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  #2255  
Old Posted Mar 9, 2017, 4:39 PM
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post

Now that being said, I find entering the US by air and using preclearance in Canadian airports to be a far easier time than crossing at a port of entry on a highway. For whatever reason they never really seem to ask me any questions at the airport besides the basic where are you going, reason, etc., so I'm still fairly confident when flying to the US.

I have found this as well, although I have not traveled by air (or land) since Trump was sworn in. Even when there isn't pre-clearance I've never really had issues in the U.S. when flying - generally takes no more than 30 seconds after using the machine where they scan your passport / take your picture. It's a very painless process.

Never had particular issues driving but definitely get more questions than at the airport. I'm flying to Chicago this summer for a few days so will see what it is like then.
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  #2256  
Old Posted Mar 9, 2017, 4:41 PM
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I most definetely won't boycott the U.S. as a travel destination for political reasons, and never have. But I might think twice about booking or paying something that is non-refundable.
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  #2257  
Old Posted Mar 9, 2017, 4:47 PM
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
Being a pretty clean cut white guy with family in tow, I've never had a problem entering the US. But I have to admit, with the reports of a more bellicose approach being taken by US border guards I'm starting to wonder if I should be looking elsewhere for vacations.

It's not so much a matter of principle as it is one of sheer financial risk... if I shell out a few thousand dollars up front to rent a condo for a couple of weeks on VRBO or airbnb or wherever, the last thing I need is some power tripping border guard finding a reason not to let me in and then being out all that cash.

Now that being said, I find entering the US by air and using preclearance in Canadian airports to be a far easier time than crossing at a port of entry on a highway. For whatever reason they never really seem to ask me any questions at the airport besides the basic where are you going, reason, etc., so I'm still fairly confident when flying to the US.
With my fiancee being brown (indigenous) I'm nervous about my Hong Kong trip - we've never had a problem any other time, but that was before.
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  #2258  
Old Posted Mar 9, 2017, 4:57 PM
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With my fiancee being brown (indigenous) I'm nervous about my Hong Kong trip - we've never had a problem any other time, but that was before.
My wife is half-brown. I like to tease her that travelling with me is as good as having a Nexus card... no problems ever

Of course I can speak only in generalities and in terms of past experience, but HK is going to be a laughably easy customs process for someone with a Canadian passport. As long as you two have clean records and don't look like stock characters from a crime movie, you'll breeze through.

As an aside, I love HK, it's probably my favourite place on earth, after Winnipeg of course. Been a few times and planning to go back in a couple of years. Are you connecting there or is that your actual destination?
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  #2259  
Old Posted Mar 9, 2017, 6:10 PM
khabibulin khabibulin is offline
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Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
The US is NOT destabilizing in anyway, shape, or form. The Republicans have the Presidency, Senate, and Congress so if anything the US has, politically at least, become more stable. Just because the Democrats still can't handle the fact they lost the election or that the left-wing {and yes the vast majority of MSM is left leaning} media got everything wrong on their election predictions or what THEY believed the American people thought does not mean the country is destabilizing. There is certainly a huge division in the US right now be it political, social, or economic but that division would be just as large if Hillary had won.

Is Trump a buffoon?.........yes but Trump is not the US government nor does he represent all Republicans and in the US, unlike dictatorial Canada, the members of the Senate & House can vote as they please and vote in a way that reflects the views of their constituents and not the political party.
I agree. The longer this thread continues, the more it will seem like the "Canada's real estate bubble is about to burst" thread.
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  #2260  
Old Posted Mar 9, 2017, 7:15 PM
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Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
Thanks to the US government deadlock, Americans are about to lose the ability to travel to Europe without a visa.

The EU has a "visa reciprocity" rule where foreigners can only be eligible for visa-free travel if their governments in turn grant visa-free travel to citizens of all EU countries.

The USA violates this rule as it requires citizens of Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, and Croatia to get visas to enter the US.

In 2014 the EU warned the USA that it would enforce visa reciprocity if the USA didn't change. And now.. the EU has decided to impose a hard deadline.

If the USA does not allow visa-free entry to citizens of Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, and Croatia by the end of April, American citizens will lose the ability to enter the EU without a visa.
I wonder what the economic impact to the EU would be in terms of loss of tourists, if this happens?
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