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  #21  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2018, 3:14 PM
mhays mhays is offline
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Originally Posted by CaliNative View Post
I recently read, or heard on T.V. that "dorm-type housing" with the proverbial "bathroom & shower down the hall"you refer to is actually a growing trend, not just for college students but as a way to increase rental affordability in cities. Basically an updated version of the old single room occupancy or "SRO" type housing. Of course zoning laws are a challenge. If they could just squeeze a little bathroom & shower into the room, that would make it more popular. Shared bathrooms & showers are not ideal.
Seattle recently updated its land use codes that were allowing SRO-type units. Now with some exceptions (actual dorms for example) the lower limit is 220 square feet (larger than many hotel rooms), but to squeeze in everything it's really more like 280 square feet. That pushes new units into the $1,000+ range. And "screw everyone else," according to the City.
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  #22  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2018, 3:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Cirrus View Post

But look how little land there is that's in those purple/orange/teal development zones. And that giant splash of purple is a railyard that's effectively off-limits, so there's really even less than it looks like. The predictable result is that growth can only happen in a small number of places. This problem is not unique to DC; every US city (except famously affordable Houston) has a map that looks basically the same.
It's no San Fran. but Houston isn't that affordable. Not any more...if you want to live in an area (near town) without check cashing places all over the place. Houston was dirt cheap about 10+ years ago.
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  #23  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2018, 8:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
There are surely a variety of reasons, some market-specific, many more broadly applicable.

You touch on many, if not most.

Clearly, in general terms, demand is rising heavily in certain, highly popular markets, notably, in North America, SF, Seattle, DC, NY, Boston, Toronto and Vancouver; but many others as well though mostly in lesser intensity.

Before addressing supply, what's up w/demand?

A few things.

Obviously, a growing population writ large. The U.S. continues to grow by a few million each year. Canada by about 400,000.

Those new immigrants tend to disproportionately end up in those 'high-demand' markets, because they are the largest cities, the most likely to feature common linguistic and cultural communities, and the most likely to have the greatest range of employment opportunities.

That puts pressure on any city's market.

We are, however, also reaching a point in many centres where further urban sprawl no longer makes sense. Completely apart from whether one wants a back yard, or a suburban lifestyle as opposed to 'urban' living; commute times are increasingly unwieldy at the outer edge of urban markets.

No one, or very few people want to commute 2 hours to work.

As that limits sprawl, you're also seeing some general trends towards more urban living and employment. Part of that is merely cyclical, one generation loves carpets, the next wants hardwood floors; but part of that is also the lived experience of built-out suburbs that are higher in traffic w/longer commutes than a previous generation experienced, thus driving at least some shift towards more urban living.

In cities that are already built out and even moderately dense, that puts enormous pressure on the existing market, and forces prices upwards.

The next issue is low-cost credit. For a previous generation, buying a home meant facing Mortgage rates in or about 4-5% (with a brief stint in the late 70s/early 80s of 15%+ .

Typically down payments also had to be 10% plus.

Those obstacles reduced the number of buyers in the market somewhat and made them more price sensitive.

This restricted excess pricing to some degree.

In an age of sub-10% down and Mortgages at 3% people can afford to carry a larger purchase price, and do.

Beyond that, you have the change in social organization creating demand

By which I mean, delayed marriage/cohabitation, which creates a new need to house people in that post living with the parents stage of life, before any 'settling down'.

That's a market segment that used to live w/their folks until 20, 22, 24 and then move out to get a house as a couple.

Today, they may move out at 24, but they get 2 homes/condos/apartments for 5 or more years, before couplehood kicks in.

That speaks to the demand side of the equation.

The supply side, has a few issues of its own.

The first is the so-called declining middle class.

By which I mean the greater divergence in incomes between a lower-income group and the 'upper-middle'.

This creates a problem, in a few ways.

First, that upper-middle group, has seen income increase well above inflation over the last 20 years.

As such they can now afford to bid for houses to get exactly what they want (forces price up, froths the market); but they also, often own more than one home. Both homes purchased for speculative investment, and for rental income are increasingly common, particularly in the 'hot' markets.

That has the effect of withdrawing supply on the ownership side.

While alternatively, those whose relative economic situation is stagnant or deteriorating means people at that end can't keep w/the market at all.

In other words, affordability is relative.

But there's yet another issue, which is shortage of multi-residential rental housing to meet the needs of that group.

Here's the problem, if you had an apartment in SF 20 years ago in area 'x' that was renting for $800USD a month and was somewhat affordable to a middle-class person; that same spot, due to factors outlined above is now renting for $2,400USD a month.

That is closely associated w/the high cost of land, which means even if a developer were to come along and build new rental housing, they must recover the cost of the land.

They also have to do so while meeting more rigid building codes than a previous generation. From sprinklers, to accessibility requirements, to emergency power, to internal storage of waste, core costs are up well over 25% completely apart from land/labour costs.

Construction in highly urban areas is also more expensive to carry out than in green-field pastures.

This means brand new rental housing would be unlikely to come in at less than 20% ABOVE current average rents.

All the while, a significant chunk of those needing said rentals have depressed incomes, and could barely afford the inflation adjusted rent for the apartment described above.

That tends to stifle construction.

New rental housing could be built more cheaply in suburban areas; but then you get into NIMBY issues.

On top of that those areas are often less desirable to renters, so you get into questions of whether the ROI is there for a developer at the rent the market will bear.

Finally, you have two other issues, one is foreign money in major markets; particularly capital from China where newly affluent locals are looking for legal places to place some of there money outside the country. That often lends itself to real estate.

The other is the absence of the government from being a material player in either the rental or the ownership market, in ways they clearly were in the 20 years post WWII.

From low and no interest mortgages for returning veterans or those who built co-ops, to the direct construction of public housing, government was a material player for a time.

For the most part, in both the U.S. and Canada that began to change by the mid 70s, and was all but gone by late 80s.

The result, a constriction on supply, particularly for the low-end of market.

Or at least that might partially explain the situation, I think.

Good answer. I agree with most of what you write.
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  #24  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 1:12 AM
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  #25  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 1:13 AM
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You first!
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  #26  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 1:30 AM
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Simple answer is zoning. Solutions are a bit more complicated .
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  #27  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 2:35 AM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post

That's a damn good deal. But it basically goes against everything SSP stands for since it's suburban.


However, most Americans don't give a damn about or urban values so they would easily move here.
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  #28  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 3:27 AM
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Here in the most cost burdened city in the US (% of income spent on rent, housing costs/incomes...etc). Plan to have schools build housing for teachers:

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/loca...206839799.html

Quote:
Teachers can’t afford Miami rents. The county has a plan: Let them live at school.

Amid a wide gap between modest teacher salaries and Miami’s high housing prices, the county has a new plan: build apartments on school property and let faculty live there.

A preliminary proposal includes constructing a new mid-rise middle school in the luxe Brickell area for Southside Elementary, with a floor devoted to residential units, and several more reserved for parking and the classrooms on top. If that goes well, Miami-Dade wants a full-fledged housing complex next to Phillis Wheatley Elementary, with as many as 300 apartments going up on the campus just north of downtown.

“It’s an exciting idea,” said Michael Liu, Miami-Dade’s housing director. “Land is at a premium in Miami-Dade County. It’s difficult to come by, especially in the urban core.”
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  #29  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 4:40 AM
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Originally Posted by dave8721 View Post
Here in the most cost burdened city in the US (% of income spent on rent, housing costs/incomes...etc). Plan to have schools build housing for teachers:

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/loca...206839799.html
San Francisco isn't planning that--the city is doing it and has been for a while now:

Quote:
By Laura Waxmann on November 26, 2017 1:00 am
Future residents of the proposed teacher housing complex slated for development in the Sunset District could have their tenancies capped at seven years, the San Francisco Examiner has learned.

In an effort to address school district vacancies and high teacher turnover as a result of San Francisco’s high rents, The City and the San Francisco Unified School District joined forces in developing the Francis Scott Key Annex — a district-owned plot of land at 1351 42nd Ave. — into up to 150 affordable homes specifically for educators.

The City has committed $44 million in public funds toward the project, and details of the plan are beginning to emerge . . . .
http://www.sfexaminer.com/sf-teacher...y-seven-years/

There is probably no socialistic scheme we haven't thought of before just about any other city. We have a Board of Supervisors trying to outdo one another thinking up these ways to spend public money.
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  #30  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 7:57 AM
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^They could just, you know, raise teachers' salaries!
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  #31  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by skyscraperpage17 View Post
You first!
If I was in my twenties and single, maybe with a career in automation or automobiles or urban restoration in mind, absolutely.
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  #32  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by jd3189 View Post
That's a damn good deal. But it basically goes against everything SSP stands for since it's suburban.


However, most Americans don't give a damn about or urban values so they would easily move here.
It's just fun to hear people complain about affordability when there are so many cheap, relatively vibrant places to live in this country.
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  #33  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
It's just fun to hear people complain about affordability when there are so many cheap, relatively vibrant places to live in this country.
The U.S. is almost certainly the cheapest first world country for housing costs relative to incomes. Look at Canada, Australia, Western Europe.

Americans are just spoiled when it comes to housing. They want to put 0 down on 3,000 square ft. mini-mansions with 3 car garage for like 250k, demand low taxes, good schools and within driving distance of amenities.

In, say, Germany, you'll get a crappy one-bedroom walkup apartment and you're paying cash, as mortgages are rare. And your income will be 30% lower.
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  #34  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 12:43 PM
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If I was in my twenties and single, maybe with a career in automation or automobiles or urban restoration in mind, absolutely.
I'm very familiar with the neighborhood in that link (native Detroiter born and raised in the city proper). They even made a song about it ("You might, get shot, IN MY HOOD!!!").

There's a reason that housing is so cheap. It's not the place for a young, educated, upwardly mobile person, especially if they're not the right skin color.

To put things in context, when people say there's a lack of affordable housing, they're referring to locales that also have decent schools, low crimes, good job opportunities and decent retail options. Those type of places are a rare find these days.

That's why I like my suburb / county in Georgia (a sleeper). You can still get nice size new construction homes for less than $200k, yet it still has some of the better schools in the state, decent retail (if I need a pair of jeans from Old Navy, or a power cord from Best Buy, or exercise equipment from Dick's, it's all less than 5 miles / a few minutes away), low taxes and my community was deemed one of the top 10 safest in the state.
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  #35  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 6:25 PM
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i don't know about detroit, but the relatively safe areas with relatively intact neighborhoods/houses in walkable areas with intact commercial streets that just need "fixing up" has been done in st. louis (not completely but it's getting there).

so the areas that are in decay or are extremely violent are getting worse and the "fixed up" areas are getting noticeably more expensive, there's a noticeable divergence beginning. (still not at all expensive by coastal standards... but 10 years ago you could buy a turnkey solid brick house in a perfectly intact (no gaps between houses), safe neighborhood with walkable commercial nearby for 90k...i did it. not so now.)

19th century houses don't get "fixed up" by twenty-something financial advisers on the weekend, anymore. they just don't...it's not 1970. you have to pour way more money and time in them now.
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Last edited by Centropolis; Mar 27, 2018 at 6:43 PM.
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  #36  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 7:00 PM
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i19th century houses don't get "fixed up" by twenty-something financial advisers on the weekend, anymore. they just don't...it's not 1970. you have to pour way more money and time in them now.
True.

Besides, I doubt your average 20-something is making enough money to even afford to fix up a home.
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  #37  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 7:48 PM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
If I was in my twenties and single, maybe with a career in automation or automobiles or urban restoration in mind, absolutely.
This particular home is right on a highway so that effects it's value, the young professional types are usually more attracted to the more historical areas with more significant architecture (at least until those neighborhoods become too expensive).

I know a Michigan grad in his 20's who actually bought a home in Boston Edison (I'm not sure if he renovated it, we don't talk that much), he rented out some of the rooms and they essentially pay his mortgage now, he works in tech (he actually works remotely from a company in New York) and is trying to start a business.

Funny thing is he was seriously looking at New York for awhile but couldn't find anything remotely affordable anywhere in the city. Buying a home in Detroit was the best decision for him and the investment is certain to pay off, that area is very hot.
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  #38  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 8:05 PM
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Because of Jane Jacobs, the original NIMBY.
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  #39  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 8:54 PM
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned GDP concentration. Off cuff, the 20 largest cities in the US account for more than 50% of GDP, that means a huge amount of the countries wealth, and wages are competing for a minute amount of the countries physical land mass in terms of housing. Restrictive zoning seems to be a downstream issue from this.

Edit : For clarity, this is a new phenomenon.
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  #40  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 8:54 PM
LouisVanDerWright LouisVanDerWright is offline
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I can tell you one thing, in Chicago it now costs $17,000 to replace a single water line to a 2-6 unit building. I just renovated two right next to each other so I'm out $34k just replacing the two lines. That's a cost of about $6000 a unit just from upgrading lead to copper. My overall gut rehab costs now exceed $100,000 a unit. If I weren't buying my buildings for next to free, I would have to charge truly excessive rents to make myself whole. Since I can buy units for like $20-25k/unit I'm able to be in them for $135-140k/unit totally rebuilt. However that means even I must charge $1300-1450 for 2 beds and $1550-1750 for 3 Beds to make the numbers work. Now imagine how that affects the rents in areas where you pay $100-150k+ per unit just for the land. It's no surprise that rents are often $2,000 or $3,000 an apartment.
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