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  #5941  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2018, 5:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I am as well. Though I live in Quebec. Does that even count?
After they're done with your earnings, do they even let you keep any?
I miss the city and the people, but I sure don't miss the taxes... That said, standard of living would be very comparable at the end of the day, due mostly in part to everything being unreasonably expensive here during boom years. As geotag often alludes to, bust years are great for finding bargains and recruiting cheap talent.
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  #5942  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2018, 5:02 AM
saffronleaf saffronleaf is offline
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PEI is undoubtedly the biggest leech of equalization money, right? And I believe it's been the case for a long time...

Now let's say we discover tomorrow a gazillion tons of diamonds of the highest purity ever on that island, and everyone over there starts earning well into the six figures just for existing.

They'll "get screwed" by equalization, and "there is an argument to be made that equalization is unfair to PEI".

Yet the rules haven't changed, same calculation as previously.....

Basically you've got a bunch of oil in your back yard and oil is still quite valuable these days, so yeah, you "get screwed" because your above-average wealth means you'll be paying more than others into our collective coffers.

Maybe within our lifetimes this will change, and then the exact same formula as always will suddenly not be that unfair to Alberta, for some reason.
That's what I was saying. The inevitable BC-Quebec embargo is good for Alberta because it will make Alberta the largest recipient of federal assistance for decades to come, far eclipsing what they've contributed.
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  #5943  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2018, 5:02 AM
geotag277 geotag277 is offline
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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
I agree that it's unbecoming of them to bring up the money part
"What are the chances you guys are really rich"?

"Why do you guys keep bringing up money!"

The level of discourse in this thread is comical.
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  #5944  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2018, 5:02 AM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
The impact on the average Nova Scotia elementary school or high school is probably something we can actually approximate to zero, yes. I imagine the Earth could open and swallow Alberta tomorrow and these kids would probably not notice much difference in the quality of their education. (Also, Ontario would become a "have" province compared to the average without AB, and there would still be significant equalization money going to NS in any case.)
A teacher once told us to make sure we studied hard, because the ones who didn't get into university after would have to move out to Alberta!
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  #5945  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2018, 5:03 AM
saffronleaf saffronleaf is offline
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Originally Posted by geotag277 View Post
"What are the chances you guys are really rich"?

"Why do you guys keep bringing up money!"

The level of discourse in this thread is comical.
Yup, it's not something unique to Albertans. Greed is common among humans. I support those who are brave in calling it out whenever they see it, like someone123 (and not just when it suits them).
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  #5946  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2018, 5:04 AM
geotag277 geotag277 is offline
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
The impact on the average Nova Scotia elementary school or high school is probably something we can actually approximate to zero, yes. I imagine the Earth could open and swallow Alberta tomorrow and these kids would probably not notice much difference in the quality of their education. (Also, Ontario would become a "have" province compared to the average without AB, and there would still be significant equalization money going to NS in any case.)
Yes, perhaps, if you carve out elementary school and high school, exclude post secondary which the CST is mainly used for, and tweak and frame the conversation along a very narrow band such that you can draw a circle around a tiny subset of services and through self imposed ignorance remove the rest of the picture, I suppose you could make the argument that the effect would be perhaps potentially not noticeable under certain conditions.
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  #5947  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2018, 5:05 AM
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Originally Posted by geotag277 View Post
200 billion outflows over 15 years, means 13 billion dollars per year, which implies a 13 billion negative impact to the Federal government budget without it. For the record, the #1 line item on the budget is social services (the CST - funds education).

I suppose you can pretend the impact is zero, but it seems rather disingenuous.
FYI, in the meantime (15 years) the GDP of Canada was over 20 trillion dollars and the GDP of Quebec over 5 trillion dollars so again even if you threw that 200 billion into a volcano out of spite rather than sending it to Ottawa it would still only amount for the rest of us to a minor recession at worst.

Sure, it's big numbers at first sight ("billions!"), but they're actually not that big in the grand scheme of things.
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  #5948  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2018, 5:07 AM
geotag277 geotag277 is offline
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
FYI, in the meantime (15 years) the GDP of Canada was over 20 trillion dollars and the GDP of Quebec over 5 trillion dollars so again even if you threw that 200 billion into a volcano out of spite rather than sending it to Ottawa it would still only amount for the rest of us to a minor recession at worst.

Sure, it's big numbers at first sight ("billions!"), but they're actually not that big in the grand scheme of things.
It's relatively big in the context of the size of Alberta as a province, I'd say. And Alberta stands above the rest as pushing these types of service standards higher as the outflow picture shows.
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  #5949  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2018, 5:09 AM
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Originally Posted by geotag277 View Post
Yes, perhaps, if you carve out elementary school and high school, exclude post secondary which the CST is mainly used for, and tweak and frame the conversation along a very narrow band such that you can draw a circle around a tiny subset of services and through self imposed ignorance remove the rest of the picture, I suppose you could make the argument that the effect would be perhaps potentially not noticeable under certain conditions.
Now you've got me wondering how Nova Scotia even managed to exist before Alberta was created. What would these poor people do without Alberta funding everything nice they've got?
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  #5950  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2018, 5:11 AM
geotag277 geotag277 is offline
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Now you've got me wondering how Nova Scotia even managed to exist before Alberta was created. What would these poor people do without Alberta funding everything nice they've got?
As this really descended into putting absurd things in each others mouths?

Are you guys really satisfied with yourself falling over yourself making backhanded passive aggressive derogatory comments regarding Alberta, just because some facts have been presented regarding our out sized outflows?

Speaking of funding high school, this is starting to feel like a bad version of one.
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  #5951  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2018, 5:12 AM
saffronleaf saffronleaf is offline
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It just depends on how you look at it.

$10 billion or whatever is not a significant percentage of the aggregate and the impact of that will not affect business tycoons like lio and acajack.

But it could affect, for example, households that are struggling to pay the rent and put food on the table, or provide the most basic of services to indigenous communities.

Different people put different weight on those kinds of things. For some, it's not a big deal. For others, how we treat the most vulnerable and marginalized in our society is important.

I think Alberta should be humbled to be in the position to contribute, in the same way that high income earners should be humbled to be in the position to contribute through taxes toward the well being of fellow humans and other sentient animals.
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  #5952  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2018, 5:13 AM
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I overheard this guy the other day and he said his house back in cape breton was $50,000 and it was really nice for out there. Really? housing is that cheap out there?
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  #5953  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2018, 5:14 AM
lio45 lio45 is offline
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Originally Posted by geotag277 View Post
It's relatively big in the context of the size of Alberta as a province, I'd say.
I have no problem acknowledging that you guys are punching above your weight there, if that's what you were fishing for.


(I think now in this thread with all this equalization and disingenuousness all we need is Okotoks to get a SSP Canada BINGO!)
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  #5954  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2018, 5:15 AM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
Now you've got me wondering how Nova Scotia even managed to exist before Alberta was created. What would these poor people do without Alberta funding everything nice they've got?
Even that's aiming pretty low for you, lio.
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  #5955  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2018, 5:21 AM
lio45 lio45 is offline
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Originally Posted by geotag277 View Post
As this really descended into putting absurd things in each others mouths?

Are you guys really satisfied with yourself falling over yourself making backhanded passive aggressive derogatory comments regarding Alberta, just because some facts have been presented regarding our out sized outflows?

Speaking of funding high school, this is starting to feel like a bad version of one.
I've already gone all over these facts a few days ago in this very thread with Hackslack when he was arguing that my quality of life here would take a sharp drop without Alberta's generosity. I brought up numbers then and I rest my case: it wouldn't.

Now you're starting to sound like him ("Nova Scotia schools would suffer a noticeable decline in quality without Alberta's money", basically) and my patience for having this exact conversation again is going to be thinner than the first time.

You guys are paying arguably your fair share (by definition, as the formula predates the era of AB's booming and wealth) maybe even more than your fair share (I'd concede anytime that you do, personally), but you're a far cry from single-handedly being the reason the sun still rises in the morning on this country.
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  #5956  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2018, 5:23 AM
lio45 lio45 is offline
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Originally Posted by cyeg66 View Post
Even that's aiming pretty low for you, lio.
In my defense, I was less rude than that the first time I had this exact conversation with an Albertan, if that helps.
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  #5957  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2018, 5:26 AM
geotag277 geotag277 is offline
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
I've already gone all over these facts a few days ago in this very thread with Hackslack when he was arguing that my quality of life here would take a sharp drop without Alberta's generosity. I brought up numbers then and I rest my case: it wouldn't.

Now you're starting to sound like him ("Nova Scotia schools would suffer a noticeable decline in quality without Alberta's money", basically) and my patience for having this exact conversation again is going to be thinner than the first time.

You guys are paying arguably your fair share (by definition), maybe even more than your fair share (I'd concede anytime that you do, personally), but you're a far cry from single-handedly being the reason the sun still rises in the morning on this country.
25% of the TSX is energy, and by extension, many RRSP/mutual fund/retirement savings.

20% of our exports are energy, and by extension, 20% of our dollar and purchasing power are tied up with energy.

200B outflows over 15 years to fund social services across the country, without which the Federal government deficit would have an 10B yearly negative impact, reverberated and exasperating all provincial government budgets, some of which would suffer multi-billion dollar deficit adjustments per year.

Sure, we aren't the sun, but we aren't "unnoticeable".
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  #5958  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2018, 5:30 AM
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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
That's what I was saying. The inevitable BC-Quebec embargo is good for Alberta because it will make Alberta the largest recipient of federal assistance for decades to come, far eclipsing what they've contributed.
Now you're again being trollish and hyperbolic, but it's still true that if AB wished to completely shut down their oil operations and revert to being a rural ranching province, it would probably start getting Manitoba-caliber equalization per capita (in other words, higher than Quebec) and it would be all very fair.

The rules are the same for everybody.

Similarly, I could liquidate or burn all my assets and eventually I could apply for welfare and get it. Just like anyone else could do the exact same thing.
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  #5959  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2018, 5:34 AM
saffronleaf saffronleaf is offline
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Now you're again being trollish and hyperbolic, but it's still true that if AB wished to completely shut down their oil operations and revert to being a rural ranching province, it would probably start getting Manitoba-caliber equalization per capita (in other words, higher than Quebec) and it would be all very fair.

The rules are the same for everybody.

Similarly, I could liquidate or burn all my assets and eventually I could apply for welfare and get it. Just like anyone else could do the exact same thing.
Oh yea, the system is fair and consistent. Unless Alberta does something serious, they will benefit tremendously from federal assistance for decades on decades.
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  #5960  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2018, 5:34 AM
lio45 lio45 is offline
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Originally Posted by geotag277 View Post
25% of the TSX is energy, and by extension, many RRSP/mutual fund/retirement savings.

20% of our exports are energy, and by extension, 20% of our dollar and purchasing power are tied up with energy.

200B outflows over 15 years to fund social services across the country, without which the Federal government deficit would have an 10B yearly negative impact, reverberated and exasperating all provincial government budgets, some of which would suffer multi-billion dollar deficit adjustments per year.

Sure, we aren't the sun, but we aren't "unnoticeable".
And yes, sure, without you, there would have to be budget adjustments here and there. That's basic math and inevitable.

Some of the stuff we can currently afford, like temporary skating rinks costing $8.1 million, would have to be cut, etc.
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