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  #1  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2013, 10:58 PM
RyeJay RyeJay is offline
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French language-related stuff

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Originally Posted by cormiermax View Post
Where did you hear that Quebecers look down upon proper Acadian French? Iv never heard this. Acadian French actually sounds better than Quebec French, the accent is much cleaner.
I've heard this from every Acadian and Brayon in Grand Falls and (especially) Edmonston with whom I've spoken about this topic.

My francophone friends from Edmonston who worked in call centres in Moncton frequently tell me horror stories about their customers from Quebec, who say rude things like...'Oh, you should just speak English so I can understand you better.'

The separate francophone groups in Canada, I've found, are oddly critical of each other's dialects.

You, yourself, are seeming to be quite the French language critic. 'Proper' Acadian French is better than Quebec French, eh?

There are African immigrants living in Moncton who would disagree with you.
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  #2  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2013, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by cormiermax View Post
Where did you hear that Quebecers look down upon proper Acadian French? Iv never heard this. Acadian French actually sounds better than Quebec French, the accent is much cleaner.
Its a fact. Just as Quebecois look down on Gaspe.
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  #3  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2013, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyeJay View Post
I've heard this from every Acadian and Brayon in Grand Falls and (especially) Edmonston with whom I've spoken about this topic.

My francophone friends from Edmonston who worked in call centres in Moncton frequently tell me horror stories about their customers from Quebec, who say rude things like...'Oh, you should just speak English so I can understand you better.'

The separate francophone groups in Canada, I've found, are oddly critical of each other's dialects.

You, yourself, are seeming to be quite the French language critic. 'Proper' Acadian French is better than Quebec French, eh?

There are African immigrants living in Moncton who would disagree with you.
I'm guessing those who are being criticised are speaking Chiac as many in the call centres of Moncton do. I don't like to call my self a language critic, but I think its important to master ones language. Chiac just seems like a very lazy way to speak French.
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Old Posted Mar 5, 2013, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by cormiermax View Post
...Chiac should be looked down upon.
Why do you think that it should be looked down upon? Why would you encourage people to look down on others because they don't speak the way you prefer? Should Newfoundland English be "looked down upon" as well? What about Ebonics, or Cockney, or Carribbean dialects? Are their speakers inferior in some way to those who speak "standard" English (whatever that is)?
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Old Posted Mar 6, 2013, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Hali87 View Post
Why do you think that it should be looked down upon? Why would you encourage people to look down on others because they don't speak the way you prefer? Should Newfoundland English be "looked down upon" as well? What about Ebonics, or Cockney, or Carribbean dialects? Are their speakers inferior in some way to those who speak "standard" English (whatever that is)?
Looked down upon in a linguistic context. I'm not saying look down upon those who speak Chiac, I'm saying educate people to the point where they can fully express them selves in their native tongue rather than have to mix two languages together. At least the examples you mentioned invented their own vocabulary and are somewhat interesting. Using English for every second word whilst speaking French just sounds.. bad.
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Old Posted Mar 6, 2013, 12:37 AM
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Originally Posted by cormiermax View Post
I'm guessing those who are being criticised are speaking Chiac as many in the call centres of Moncton do. I don't like to call my self a language critic, but I think its important to master ones language. Chiac just seems like a very lazy way to speak French.
These Brayons working in Moncton call centres don't speak Chiac. The dialect of French in Edmonston is quite similar to what you find in Quebec. And yet there are still awfully harsh criticisms from Quebecers.

Do you feel as though Modern English is lazy for adopting words from other languages, instead of exclusively creating its own?

Everyone I know who speaks Chiac can also speak General Canadian French; however, they are choosing to speak Chiac for cultural reasons. I don't except it to stop, considering the degree to which anglophones and francophones in the Moncton area intermarry.
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  #7  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2013, 12:40 AM
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Originally Posted by RyeJay View Post
These Brayons working in Moncton call centres don't speak Chiac. The dialect of French in Edmonston is quite similar to what you find in Quebec. And yet there are still awfully harsh criticisms from Quebecers.

Do you feel as though Modern English is lazy for adopting words from other languages, instead of exclusively creating its own?

Everyone I know who speaks Chiac can also speak General Canadian French; however, they are choosing to speak Chiac for cultural reasons. I don't except it to stop, considering the degree to which anglophones and francophones in the Moncton area intermarry.
Cultural reasons? What Cultural reasons are those? Proximity to English speakers?
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Old Posted Mar 6, 2013, 12:54 AM
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Originally Posted by cormiermax View Post
Cultural reasons? What Cultural reasons are those? Proximity to English speakers?
Well, the Acadian community considered itself distinct from the global French community before Le Grand Dérengement even occurred. So it makes sense that Acadians in general would not have a strong regard for the French language and would be proud of their own dialect, even if it is basically just a hybrid of English and French. It speaks to the history of this culture much better than 100% French (or 100% English) would.
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Old Posted Mar 6, 2013, 1:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Hali87 View Post
Well, the Acadian community considered itself distinct from the global French community before Le Grand Dérengement even occurred. So it makes sense that Acadians in general would not have a strong regard for the French language and would be proud of their own dialect, even if it is basically just a hybrid of English and French. It speaks to the history of this culture much better than 100% French (or 100% English) would.
Well the Acadian language is unique in the fact that it still uses words that have long since been forgotten in other dialects. We should be very proud of this, as our isolation has given us something very unique. Chiac on the other hand seems like a more modern phenomenon, and I hope that it isn't the future of the Acadian language in general.
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Old Posted Mar 6, 2013, 3:11 AM
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Can someone tell me where the French - Chiac discussion went (if anywhere?). I have a bunch of things to say!
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Old Posted Mar 6, 2013, 3:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hali87 View Post
Well, the Acadian community considered itself distinct from the global French community before Le Grand Dérengement even occurred. So it makes sense that Acadians in general would not have a strong regard for the French language and would be proud of their own dialect, even if it is basically just a hybrid of English and French. It speaks to the history of this culture much better than 100% French (or 100% English) would.
Perhaps, but they certainly never considered themselves a French-English hybrid. Even today most Acadians do not speak Chiac, and the vast majority don't consider themselves to be the product of some French-English meshing. The only people who would feel that way are people who are born of one francophone and one anglophone parent, and these are a fairly small minority. Plus, most of these 50-50 people would probably speak primarily English as a first language, not Chiac. Most Chiac speakers are descended from two Acadian parents.
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Old Posted Mar 6, 2013, 3:49 AM
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Originally Posted by RyeJay View Post
By not speaking Old English, in a sense, anglophones are meeting them halfway. Middle and Modern English are transitions toward the French language (for example, see: The Norman Conquest and Occupation of England).

.
With all due respect, this is a very specious argument to use to demonstrate that anglos are meeting Acadians halfway on language. This French influence on modern English took place hundreds of years ago and has nothing to do with present-day New Brunswickers.

As I have said before, I would be more or less OK if something like Chiac emerged as a common language spoken by ALL and reflective of the unique demographic mix of the Moncton area. Like Haitian Creole or Singlish in Singapore.

But as has been stated several times, this is not what is happening in SE NB.
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Old Posted Mar 6, 2013, 4:23 AM
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Oh yeah, and all this stuff about people in Quebec hating the Acadian accent is greatly overstated. I live in Quebec and do not have an Acadian accent (so people are not just being polite) and I overhear many more positive comments than negative ones. Many people here are quite curious about the colloquialisms and archaisms of Acadian French, and also find it quite charming and endearing.
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Old Posted Mar 6, 2013, 4:59 AM
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100% agree with what Acajack said.
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Old Posted Mar 6, 2013, 5:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Oh yeah, and all this stuff about people in Quebec hating the Acadian accent is greatly overstated.
I've spoken to a few people in Quebec who thought that Acadians spoke "fake" French (or that all New Brunswickers can only form sentences that are half English and half French) but that is a classic self-reinforcing stereotype. If you start by assuming that people of group X do Y, everything you see will be consistent with your theory.

A lot of the comments on Quebec French are pretty similar. The reality is that there isn't one Quebec dialect or accent, and there seems to have been a strong shift toward more standardized French over the past 3 generations or so (just as there has been a shift toward standard English -- if you want to hear some strange accents, just listen to some recording from the Maritimes in the 20's or 30's).
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Old Posted Mar 6, 2013, 2:23 PM
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Originally Posted by cormiermax View Post
Cultural reasons? What Cultural reasons are those? Proximity to English speakers?
A separate identity, away from other francophone and anglophone groups, speaking a dialect they share with friends and family. You make it seem as though they are surrendering to English speakers.

They are not.

They have chosen to incorporate English into their French, just as northern Acadians have to a degree, just as dialects in France have to a degree.
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Old Posted Mar 6, 2013, 2:25 PM
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Originally Posted by cormiermax View Post
Well the Acadian language is unique in the fact that it still uses words that have long since been forgotten in other dialects. We should be very proud of this, as our isolation has given us something very unique. Chiac on the other hand seems like a more modern phenomenon, and I hope that it isn't the future of the Acadian language in general.
Why can't you accept both? Most francophones I know who speak Chiac can also speak the northern dialect of which you're so proud.
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  #18  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2013, 2:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
With all due respect, this is a very specious argument to use to demonstrate that anglos are meeting Acadians halfway on language. This French influence on modern English took place hundreds of years ago and has nothing to do with present-day New Brunswickers.

As I have said before, I would be more or less OK if something like Chiac emerged as a common language spoken by ALL and reflective of the unique demographic mix of the Moncton area. Like Haitian Creole or Singlish in Singapore.

But as has been stated several times, this is not what is happening in SE NB.

Then perhaps the creation of Chiac is the process of francophones finally meeting anglophones halfway?

It should be noted that anglophones are not forcing southern Acadians to incorporate English into their dialect. These Acadians are accepting the English terminology and sentence structures on their own accord. D'accord?

I understand this makes them linguistic traitors, to some francophones.
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Old Posted Mar 6, 2013, 2:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Oh yeah, and all this stuff about people in Quebec hating the Acadian accent is greatly overstated. I live in Quebec and do not have an Acadian accent (so people are not just being polite) and I overhear many more positive comments than negative ones. Many people here are quite curious about the colloquialisms and archaisms of Acadian French, and also find it quite charming and endearing.
I have spoken with far too many Brayons and Acadians -- and have personally witnessed far too many rude encounters between local francophones and Québécois tourists -- to accept your claim that what I'm suggesting may be overstated.

To be clear, I never intended to convey that the majority of Québécois 'hate' Acadian dialects of French. I would surmise that there is a fair bit of criticism between francophone groups, at least compared to anglophone groups in North America.

The number of Quebec enthusiasts for Acadian French I've personally met have been very few indeed; though, I admit, I have met some. I am relieved by you're reinforcement of this.
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  #20  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2013, 4:06 PM
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Originally Posted by RyeJay View Post
I have spoken with far too many Brayons and Acadians -- and have personally witnessed far too many rude encounters between local francophones and Québécois tourists -- to accept your claim that what I'm suggesting may be overstated.

To be clear, I never intended to convey that the majority of Québécois 'hate' Acadian dialects of French. I would surmise that there is a fair bit of criticism between francophone groups, at least compared to anglophone groups in North America.

The number of Quebec enthusiasts for Acadian French I've personally met have been very few indeed; though, I admit, I have met some. I am relieved by you're reinforcement of this.
FYI, this stuff is actually quite popular in Quebec. Like mainstream:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cRPH4lb8UI


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF7DW_mZatA

Lisa Leblanc was actually one of the biggest winners at the most recent Quebec music awards.

And this Radio Radio song was featured in a hugely popular TV commercial in Quebec.
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