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  #41  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2018, 6:51 PM
NiHao NiHao is offline
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People who prefer to believe 1+1=3 should be ignored.
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  #42  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2018, 7:52 PM
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my mom has increasingly become the type of person who literally can't understand that other people have different priorities and utilities and it manifests itself in the strangest ways. Not even politics, just simple things like where to eat. She has trouble conceptualizing that other people have opinions that are not the same as her own.
She should join SSP and she'd read opinions she could never imagine.
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  #43  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2018, 8:52 PM
llamaorama llamaorama is online now
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I understand that people are entitled to their own opinion, but some opinions suck.

When an opinion is a reflection of your character, don't be surprised if someone stops liking you as a person for it. There's a reason why you don't discuss certain topics with people you don't know well or with family because you want to maintain a relationship with them.
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  #44  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2018, 9:48 PM
Via Chicago Via Chicago is offline
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I don't want to defend the Kochs, but I don't think they're evil.
id seriously recommend reading this first before saying so.

https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Money-Hi.../dp/0307947904

their family built wealth in part by building refineries for Hitler and Stalin

they tried to blackmail their own brother because they suspected he was gay

they use their philanthropies as cover for political and tax purposes (to say nothing of the fact that the problems capitalist philanthropists claim to be solving are rooted in the same economic system that allows them to generate such enormous wealth in the first place, and ignores the structural problems that prevents us from solving them)

they actively campaign and finance "think tanks" to campaign against against the interests of the working class, child labor laws, anti-trust laws, social security, the minimum wage, unions and the right of workers to organize, environmental laws...i could go on

they are beyond evil if such a definition exists. their policies and beliefs and actions make life unimaginably worse rather than better, for millions of people.

Last edited by Via Chicago; Jun 21, 2018 at 10:10 PM.
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  #45  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2018, 10:35 PM
llamaorama llamaorama is online now
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Whenever I read about extremely wealthy far right political ideologues whose worldview fits somewhere along the same axis as Ayn Rand, I get this vibe that they are sociopaths.

I mean, you have more money than you can ever do anything with, you have limitless autonomy, ability to undertake project you want, etc. Why would you direct your energy to making many people's lives worse?
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  #46  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2018, 10:37 PM
JoeMusashi JoeMusashi is offline
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Blaming the Koch Bros is a liberal cliche. The Koch Bros. don’t stop large Democratic municipalities or states from jacking their taxes up to pay for these multi-billion dollar infrastructure programs.

The fact of the matter is that Democrat voters also like driving their cars and often balk at taxes and fees that affect them. They also like spending tax dollars on other pet projects.
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  #47  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2018, 11:08 PM
llamaorama llamaorama is online now
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Blaming the Koch Bros is a liberal cliche. The Koch Bros. don’t stop large Democratic municipalities or states from jacking their taxes up to pay for these multi-billion dollar infrastructure programs.

The fact of the matter is that Democrat voters also like driving their cars and often balk at taxes and fees that affect them. They also like spending tax dollars on other pet projects.
It's not the majority democrat cities that they are targeting. They are spending a lot of money to rile up suburban voters in more conservative cities.

The other problem is that cities are beholden to the states they are in. Red states like to restrain what blue cities are allowed to do rather than respecting the concept of local control. They can pass laws banning money from being spent on certain things. They can overturn ordinances the don't like.

An example of how that pertains to transit might be how in Wisconsin it is illegal for cities and counties to form regional transit agencies. In Minnesota the state legislature tried to ban public money from being used to build light rail. Back in Nashville the previous BRT plan fell through because of State interference. It doesn't matter than 100% of the funding responsibility and liability falls at the local level, legislators from rural outstate areas will still try to attack transit.
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  #48  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2018, 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by llamaorama View Post
I understand that people are entitled to their own opinion, but some opinions suck.

When an opinion is a reflection of your character, don't be surprised if someone stops liking you as a person for it. There's a reason why you don't discuss certain topics with people you don't know well or with family because you want to maintain a relationship with them.
Exactly, and conservatives and libertarians only cry and whine when people don't accept their opinions because they have no way of actually defending and explaining those opinions with sensible logic based on objective events. When its presented to them why said opinions are stupid it's suddenly our fault for not accepting them.
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  #49  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2018, 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by llamaorama View Post
Whenever I read about extremely wealthy far right political ideologues whose worldview fits somewhere along the same axis as Ayn Rand, I get this vibe that they are sociopaths.

I mean, you have more money than you can ever do anything with, you have limitless autonomy, ability to undertake project you want, etc. Why would you direct your energy to making many people's lives worse?
Amen, you'd think every free thinking person would come to this obvious conclusion. It's not some innocent difference in ideology, they're fucking over society and people's lives all while they're on their deathbeds so they won't even have to deal with the fallout.
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  #50  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2018, 1:19 AM
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Red states like to restrain what blue cities are allowed to do rather than respecting the concept of local control. They can pass laws banning money from being spent on certain things. They can overturn ordinances the don't like.
More than that, look at the history of the Red Line in Maryland. A very blue state can be cockblocked by a red governor.

One might ask how a red governor gets in office in the first place and it's not a bad question. There's a lot that goes into it, of course. Just pointing out that states needn't be red to institute anti-urban policies. Sucks.
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  #51  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2018, 1:24 AM
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Exactly, and conservatives and libertarians only cry and whine when people don't accept their opinions because they have no way of actually defending and explaining those opinions with sensible logic based on objective events. When its presented to them why said opinions are stupid it's suddenly our fault for not accepting them.
It's not about opinions, really, it's about priorities and utilities. There's things you prize higher than other people do, and vice versa. When it comes to fundamental things, you're gonna have big political differences.

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Amen, you'd think every free thinking person would come to this obvious conclusion. It's not some innocent difference in ideology, they're fucking over society and people's lives all while they're on their deathbeds so they won't even have to deal with the fallout.
Well, a hardcore libertarian thinks their ideology gives people freedom. A hardcore communist thinks their ideology makes everyone equal in results.

Most people think the ideal is somewhere between those.
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  #52  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2018, 2:31 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeMusashi View Post
Blaming the Koch Bros is a liberal cliche. The Koch Bros. don’t stop large Democratic municipalities or states from jacking their taxes up to pay for these multi-billion dollar infrastructure programs.

The fact of the matter is that Democrat voters also like driving their cars and often balk at taxes and fees that affect them. They also like spending tax dollars on other pet projects.
That's not what happened in Nashville, though. Basically you had a lot of conservative, anti-tax people who were very motivated to go out and vote, versus a (theoretical) majority of people who kinda, vaguely, supported the idea of building a transit network. Now that it failed, most of those transit "supporters" will just shrug and keep on driving to work.

People always react more strongly to a perceived loss than a perceived gain, so any new tax will face an uphill battle. Anti-tax folks will reliably show up at the polls, while tax supporters are never going to be as passionate... I dunno if Nashville's transit supporters were ever numerous enough or passionate enough to win, but certainly the loss of the plan's biggest booster (Megan Barry) ruined any chance they did have.
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  #53  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2018, 5:28 AM
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
That's not what happened in Nashville, though. Basically you had a lot of conservative, anti-tax people who were very motivated to go out and vote, versus a (theoretical) majority of people who kinda, vaguely, supported the idea of building a transit network. Now that it failed, most of those transit "supporters" will just shrug and keep on driving to work.

People always react more strongly to a perceived loss than a perceived gain, so any new tax will face an uphill battle. Anti-tax folks will reliably show up at the polls, while tax supporters are never going to be as passionate... I dunno if Nashville's transit supporters were ever numerous enough or passionate enough to win, but certainly the loss of the plan's biggest booster (Megan Barry) ruined any chance they did have.
The article points out that the financing package was a shoo-in though in Nashville and ended up being a landslide loss. That doesn’t happen if the voters are enthusiastic about this issue. Too much in this country is decided in half-assed elections where most people don’t even show up to vote. Outside money plays a role but not enough to turn a landslide win into a landslide loss. That’s on Nashville voters, not the Koch Brothers in my opinion.

Is it really a bad thing if a $5 billion dollar expenditure of tax dollars is shot down when the only people supporting it are a dedicated niche? I really do doubt the true popularity of mass transit in cities where car ownership is preferred by the majority. Mass transit is still viewed as an amenity that benefits the affluent childless yuppies, students, and the poor outside a handful of American cities.
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  #54  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2018, 5:53 AM
JoeMusashi JoeMusashi is offline
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Originally Posted by llamaorama View Post
It's not the majority democrat cities that they are targeting. They are spending a lot of money to rile up suburban voters in more conservative cities.

The other problem is that cities are beholden to the states they are in. Red states like to restrain what blue cities are allowed to do rather than respecting the concept of local control. They can pass laws banning money from being spent on certain things. They can overturn ordinances the don't like.

An example of how that pertains to transit might be how in Wisconsin it is illegal for cities and counties to form regional transit agencies. In Minnesota the state legislature tried to ban public money from being used to build light rail. Back in Nashville the previous BRT plan fell through because of State interference. It doesn't matter than 100% of the funding responsibility and liability falls at the local level, legislators from rural outstate areas will still try to attack transit.
I don’t think it changes anything. Conservative voters are common sense voters, they aren’t fools. Listening to local radio in Milwaukee where mass transit is a daily punching bag by Republicans, callers and hosts understand its usefulness in major cities like NY, Chicago, DC, Disney World, and overseas. They won’t be convinced it is useful to medium sized cities where manufacturing jobs are spread out and inaccessible to the poor people transit proponents claims to be aiming to help. It’s true the current state government has made transit an enemy but much of that has to do with longstanding rivalries between city and suburb/rest of the state. The same shortsighted thinking is evident with Democrats trying to kill or impede highway projects. Even the massive Foxconn project here is undermined at every turn by urban liberals for no other reason than spitefulness at Walker/Trump.

I think if an idea is good, people will support it regardless of outside money. Mass transit will always be a tough sell because it involves a lot of money that benefits a small percentage of commuters in a state and in a metro area. I think that has more to do with it than the Koch Bros. Americans are selfish and uncooperative about many things. That and the arguments for mass transit aren’t convincing enough to the moderates and independents.
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  #55  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2018, 10:46 PM
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I don’t think it changes anything. Conservative voters are common sense voters, they aren’t fools. Listening to local radio in Milwaukee where mass transit is a daily punching bag by Republicans, callers and hosts understand its usefulness in major cities like NY, Chicago, DC, Disney World, and overseas. They won’t be convinced it is useful to medium sized cities where manufacturing jobs are spread out and inaccessible to the poor people transit proponents claims to be aiming to help. It’s true the current state government has made transit an enemy but much of that has to do with longstanding rivalries between city and suburb/rest of the state. The same shortsighted thinking is evident with Democrats trying to kill or impede highway projects. Even the massive Foxconn project here is undermined at every turn by urban liberals for no other reason than spitefulness at Walker/Trump.

I think if an idea is good, people will support it regardless of outside money. Mass transit will always be a tough sell because it involves a lot of money that benefits a small percentage of commuters in a state and in a metro area. I think that has more to do with it than the Koch Bros. Americans are selfish and uncooperative about many things. That and the arguments for mass transit aren’t convincing enough to the moderates and independents.
Of course it changes things, otherwise why would outfits like the Kochs spend the money? This isn't a charity.
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  #56  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2018, 6:23 AM
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The Koch brothers are a bunch of self-centered, egotistical, self-promoting, crooks but even crooks have their place.

The Nashville proposal of $5 billion in transit proposals in a city of 1.7 million that only has ridership of 32,000 passengers a day {and falling} is absolutely ridiculous made worse by the fact that they wanted an LRT tunnel. To put things into perspective of how outrageous that is, Calgary Transit which serves 1.25 million has daily ridership of 505,000.


There is a big difference between having proactive transit plans and creating a fantasy one on the back of a napkin when your stoned on Meth.
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  #57  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2018, 3:48 AM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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I don’t think it changes anything. Conservative voters are common sense voters, they aren’t fools. Listening to local radio in Milwaukee where mass transit is a daily punching bag by Republicans, callers and hosts understand its usefulness in major cities like NY, Chicago, DC, Disney World, and overseas. They won’t be convinced it is useful to medium sized cities where manufacturing jobs are spread out and inaccessible to the poor people transit proponents claims to be aiming to help. It’s true the current state government has made transit an enemy but much of that has to do with longstanding rivalries between city and suburb/rest of the state. The same shortsighted thinking is evident with Democrats trying to kill or impede highway projects. Even the massive Foxconn project here is undermined at every turn by urban liberals for no other reason than spitefulness at Walker/Trump.

I think if an idea is good, people will support it regardless of outside money. Mass transit will always be a tough sell because it involves a lot of money that benefits a small percentage of commuters in a state and in a metro area. I think that has more to do with it than the Koch Bros. Americans are selfish and uncooperative about many things. That and the arguments for mass transit aren’t convincing enough to the moderates and independents.
This really defines a major difference between Canada and the United States.
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  #58  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2018, 5:15 PM
authentiCLE authentiCLE is offline
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The Koch brothers are a bunch of self-centered, egotistical, self-promoting, crooks but even crooks have their place.

The Nashville proposal of $5 billion in transit proposals in a city of 1.7 million that only has ridership of 32,000 passengers a day {and falling} is absolutely ridiculous made worse by the fact that they wanted an LRT tunnel. To put things into perspective of how outrageous that is, Calgary Transit which serves 1.25 million has daily ridership of 505,000.

There is a big difference between having proactive transit plans and creating a fantasy one on the back of a napkin when your stoned on Meth.
It would have received the same opposition even if it was $1 billion. That's how these lobby groups work. When cities try a smaller incremental approach, the narrative becomes "the proposal serves too small a section of the city." It's how you manipulate people into not supporting anything whatsoever. If the project is small, it's too small. If it's big, it's too expensive. So nothing ever gets done.

If you can find a way to increase ridership without significant infrastructure spending, I'd like to hear it. Or do you think people will have a change of heart and start riding the twice an hour buses with no changes at all.
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  #59  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2018, 7:12 PM
NiHao NiHao is offline
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Originally Posted by JoeMusashi View Post
I don’t think it changes anything. Conservative voters are common sense voters, they aren’t fools. Listening to local radio in Milwaukee where mass transit is a daily punching bag by Republicans, callers and hosts understand its usefulness in major cities like NY, Chicago, DC, Disney World, and overseas. They won’t be convinced it is useful to medium sized cities where manufacturing jobs are spread out and inaccessible to the poor people transit proponents claims to be aiming to help. It’s true the current state government has made transit an enemy but much of that has to do with longstanding rivalries between city and suburb/rest of the state. The same shortsighted thinking is evident with Democrats trying to kill or impede highway projects. Even the massive Foxconn project here is undermined at every turn by urban liberals for no other reason than spitefulness at Walker/Trump.

I think if an idea is good, people will support it regardless of outside money. Mass transit will always be a tough sell because it involves a lot of money that benefits a small percentage of commuters in a state and in a metro area. I think that has more to do with it than the Koch Bros. Americans are selfish and uncooperative about many things. That and the arguments for mass transit aren’t convincing enough to the moderates and independents.
Bahahahaha common sense voters.
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  #60  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2018, 1:44 AM
jtown,man jtown,man is offline
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Originally Posted by authentiCLE View Post
It would have received the same opposition even if it was $1 billion. That's how these lobby groups work. When cities try a smaller incremental approach, the narrative becomes "the proposal serves too small a section of the city." It's how you manipulate people into not supporting anything whatsoever. If the project is small, it's too small. If it's big, it's too expensive. So nothing ever gets done.

If you can find a way to increase ridership without significant infrastructure spending, I'd like to hear it. Or do you think people will have a change of heart and start riding the twice an hour buses with no changes at all.
Exactly. Virginia beach had light rail on the agenda for the last election. It was a pretty smart proposal. It had existing ROW, money from the state, and key destinations(downtown Norfolk-"downtown" Virginia Beach-Beach front). Yet everyone would mention one of two things, too much money or not big enough to make any impact. Its like dangit, just admit it, you DONT want it under any circumstance. I honestly feel like if I offered to pay the city to build it the citizens would still vote against it for a myriad of reasons from real fears(possible costs in the future the city will bear to transient military folks who don't care about the cities future) to irrational racist who don't want a rail line from Norfolk to the beach even though there is a bus route that follows the same path today.
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