Toronto as #2

[kool maudit]

i guess this is kind of one for the older forumers, but having just been to toronto, one of the things that i grew curious about was what the city felt like when montreal was still the first city of canada.

toronto is now so much busier, so much more ambitious than my hometown that it's difficult to see. i know the wheels were in motion since the '30s -- manufacturing, u.s. branch plants, the stock exchange -- but until the 1970s montreal was still canada's metropolis.

they were so close for so long that there is little direct evidence that remains. it's the little things: the humble houses on palmerston above queen, the slight lack of ornate, joined walkups... but toronto is now infilling so rapidly and building so grandly that its pre-eminent status seems like it was always the case.

though i prefer montreal -- any anglophone who works in the media here is here for this personal reason, as toronto offers more opportunity -- i do love toronto, and it has a lot of history in my family. i could easily live there, given the right job. i'm no blinded booster.

if anything, i could see how toronto may have once had a sparseness, a shabbiness that montreal did not (but we're still both plenty sparse and shabby, by world standards), but i doubt it ever lacked much in confidence.

i wonder, though, how montreal appeared to torontonians in those years -- was it something to aspire to, or a dead-end to avoid? was it a sibling?

the two are so alike and yet so different, and driving home on the 401 it is the tenements of saint henri that first drive this home, that first appear unshared.

what was it like in those days before the poles flipped?

[niwell]

I've actually wondered the same thing. Toronto's traditional built form can betray it's current size for sure. The boulevard portion of Palmerston is one of the best examples, but the predominance of single family homes in general (detached and subdivided or not) and evidence of conversion from said homes on major streets is telling.

I'd venture that the puritanical forces in pre-war Toronto did not think Montreal was something to look up to. They railed enough against the odd 4 story apartment so I can't imagine what they'd think of Montreal's excess. Of course Toronto has always been a city of immigrants so these were never really the majority.

From sources I own on both Toronto and Montreal it seems the former has almost always been a metropolis by accident. Whereas Montreal had clearer aspirations of greatness. This could be off though.

[miketoronto]

Montreal may have been number one, but Toronto always had for the most part, the biggest, first, and best there was in Canada.

Tallest buildings, first subway, largest hotels, etc. Except for brief periods, Montreal never held the title for such things, and when it did, Toronto overtook Montreal in no time, by going higher, or bigger, etc.

So it is weird, as Montreal had the power, but Toronto had the things you would think would be in Montreal at the time.

Montreal is still grand and still feels like the metropolis of Canada. Toronto just does not have the built form Montreal has, or the grandness in downtown architecture, like Montreal.
Montreal just feels bigger.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Montreal just feels bigger.

not anymore. even in 1996, there were more places where this was still true, but not now. toronto is bigger, busier in every sense of the word. the only remaining comparative advantage in montreal are the bourgeois residential streets -- st-hubert, hutchison -- other than that, toronto feels larger everywhere.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Montreal may have been number one, but Toronto always had for the most part, the biggest, first, and best there was in Canada.

Tallest buildings, first subway, largest hotels, etc. Except for brief periods, Montreal never held the title for such things, and when it did, Toronto overtook Montreal in no time, by going higher, or bigger, etc.

Always? These things began in the 1930s or so and they were, with the exception of the subway (although even Rochester built one, kind of), mostly characteristic of American cities.

I know a few people who left Montreal for Toronto in the 1970s and 80s. They correctly viewed Toronto as a place of more business opportunity but saw it as quiet and culturally challenged - everything shut down early, there weren't many restaurants, etc. Toronto is much bigger than Montreal now but still feels nondescript. Canadian cities are all like this to varying degrees and there's very little correlation with size. Toronto hasn't lost this feel as it has grown.

[miketoronto]

My mom is from N.Y.C. and my mom and dad always talk about how dead Toronto was back when they were dating, compared to NYC . My mom remembers coming up to visit my dad in Toronto and how everything was closed, and you could shoot a cannon down Yonge Street on a Sunday, as nothing was open.


Toronto started to become more alive in the late 60's and 70's.

I believe my dad said you had to wait till midnight on a Sunday night to go see a movie in Toronto, as everything had to be closed on Sunday

And of course, Italians were not allowed to walk in large groups on the street. My dad remembers the police seperating Italians, and telling them to walk on seperate sides of College Street. The police were worried the Italians were forming gangs by walking together.


As for Winnipeg, you can see that it was the third largest at one time. No offense to Edmonton and Calgary, but downtown Winnipeg has much more big city architecture from the early 1900's, and just seems bigger than both downtown Edmonton and Calgary. It has more substance to it than just a skyscraper business district.

My mom hated Toronto when my parents decided to move from NYC to Toronto in the early 70's. But after a while she said Toronto has grown on her, and she really likes the city now. They still can't believe how much it has changed for the good in the last 30 years. Except for the dirty streets My parents remember when Toronto was so clean you could eat food off the sidewalks, and all the services were top notch. Not anymore.

[JayM]

*COUGHS* Winnipeg was once 3rd largest in Canada.

[Only The Lonely..]

Originally Posted by JayM

*COUGHS* Winnipeg was once 3rd largest in Canada.

You know, I think about this all the time..

Had its citizens not fool heartedly started a communist uprising in 1919, we'd sure be a different place today.

Few people appreciate how big Winnipeg used to be, we had the second largest department store in the world..an aqueduct built to handle a city of millions...the first electric railway in Canada, three horse racing tracks, heck, even the old vaudeville circuit started in Winnipeg.

If you could make it here, you could make it anywhere..

Chaplin, Bob Hope, George Burns and Oliver Hardy all launched their careers from here... Winnipeg was the only city to ever boo an upcoming Barbara Streisand, and 50 years later she still hasn't played here (nor forgotten about it).

Trying to imagine Winnipeg as third biggest is even harder than trying to picture Toronto as #2.

• Video Link

Info on the Barbra story..
Source: http://barbra-archives.com/live/60s/town_country_winnipeg_streisand.html

... The story begins in the summer of 1961 at the Town and Country supper club in Winnipeg. Streisand was booked by a Chicago agent into the club for a two-week engagement. It was to pay $300 a week — and that didn't include room, board, or transport from her home to Winnipeg and back again.

... And so on the evening of July 3, 1961, Barbra Streisand walked onto the Winnipeg stage for the first time. The Winnipeg Tribune reported: "Miss Streisand is the type of singer you'd expect to find in the Blue Angel or Hungry I. That's why Winnipeggers may find her rather strange ... When she sings her hair flies, her hands twirl, and her whole torso gets into the act." In a television interview some months later she reflected, "I worked in Winnipeg. This was a beautiful nightclub, very posh, except the people wore short shirt sleeves. They didn't wear ties to come to the nightclub". That she should want to recall her appearance at all is surprising, especially given what had happened midway through her engagement. The details vary slightly, but it really happened. Imagine the supper club and cocktail lounge, just a few years away from the 60's music revolution. This 19-year-old girl walks onstage — unusual (for the time) looks, theatrical makeup, vintage clothes, but a confidence and style far beyond her years. She sings standards and novelty songs in a way no one has heard before, and spellbinds the audience with a voice that remains the standard for female recording artists. This was clearly a problem for the club's owner, who misinterpreted the audience's hushed awe as just another failed girl singer. He took a dislike to her off-beat manner and clothes sense and half way through the engagement, he took her to task for it. But it was what he said about her talent that contributed to what would become her credo of success. He told her that he was letting her out of the engagement and that she "would never make it in the business".

Quoting Munro, "That chick you got here; she's crazy, she bombed bad, but she's going to be great." The Chicago agent said that Streisand must have lost money on the Winnipeg date because it cost her about $450. But most of all he remembers that she forgot to pay him his agent's commission. So he wrote her a polite little letter. Now Munro wishes he'd saved the letter Barbra sent him in return.

[kool maudit]

montreal's greatest projects were always infrastructural - bridges and canals. that train tunnel through the mountain. that said, toronto -- from about 1930 on -- was making its ambition known. #2 trying harder. it's as if, in the states, new york had never existed, and chicago took over from philadelphia. montreal was always rich but very corrupt, very divided, gangstery. toronto was crisp and clean and hungry. it makes sense, what happened.

[kool maudit]

re: winnipeg, it's a shame it didn't grow bigger. it certainly has the bones. still, #3 in canada was sort of like #3 in belgium...

...re: niwell's point, i think montreal was more the accidental metropole, and toronto the deliberate one.

[caltrane74]

That intersection at portage and main is very impressive, i'll give Winnipeg that.
Montreal has a very european and international feel to it, give me crap for saying it, I think its true. Just like saying Vancouver has a very Asia Pacific feeling to it, and Toronto has a very midwestern American feel to it. If anything the reason that Toronto may geel bigger in more places would be because of a combination of things I also feel when Im in New York city...
first: pedestrian traffic
I mean whoa, lots of people running everywhere, even places such as our external suburbs, its getting crazy, the crush of people of city streets is the first sign you are in abig city, i felt it in new york, i felt it in Toronto, I felt it in Montreal.
second: Big city streets, streets that say you've arrived, in toronto these streets are Spadina, Bloor, Bay, University, and Jarvis. Montreal may have similar streets but names and such Ill note be familar with.
third: skyscrapers, skyscraper,skyscrapers, everywhere, of course skyscraperrs dont make the city as there are many significant cities in europe that dont have alot of skyscrapers, but most of the big ones do now, stand at king and bay and you feel small, stand in times sqaure and you feel small, stand on yonge and feel small, this is another way we mentally process a citys size by using the objects around us to make this dertimination.
montreal feels like torntos clone, just smaller...thats what i think when i go there...... the streets have similar feel, and the pedestrian traffic, but the lack of skyscrapers is building a big divide now.....

[miketoronto]

While I love Toronto's history, Yonge Street feels like such a tiny town main street
When you go shopping on St Catharine Street in Montreal, you feel like you are in a major metropolitan shopping and entertainment destination. You don't get that anywhere in Toronto, except for tiny spots along Bloor or near the Eaton Centre.
But Montreal just has this class to it, that Toronto still does not have.
I like Toronto, but it just feels like tiny villages all knit together, where Montreal feels like it was built as a big city

[Dr Nevergold]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

While I love Toronto's history, Yonge Street feels like such a tiny town main street
When you go shopping on St Catharine Street in Montreal, you feel like you are in a major metropolitan shopping and entertainment destination. You don't get that anywhere in Toronto, except for tiny spots along Bloor or near the Eaton Centre.
But Montreal just has this class to it, that Toronto still does not have.
I like Toronto, but it just feels like tiny villages all knit together, where Montreal feels like it was built as a big city

Its just the big, bad french men that knock your senses down making you think Montreal is bigger than it is.

[Mille Sabords]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

While I love Toronto's history, Yonge Street feels like such a tiny town main street
When you go shopping on St Catharine Street in Montreal, you feel like you are in a major metropolitan shopping and entertainment destination. You don't get that anywhere in Toronto, except for tiny spots along Bloor or near the Eaton Centre.
But Montreal just has this class to it, that Toronto still does not have.
I like Toronto, but it just feels like tiny villages all knit together, where Montreal feels like it was built as a big city

I agree with this to a large extent, although I was just in Montreal last week and took a few hundred photos because it's actually amazing how much of Ste-Catherine Street is actually in the 3-4 storey range, and I'm talking between Atwater and Peel. Montreal was my first encounter with a big world city and I still get the same rush because of the amount of people on the street but also the neon illumination from hundreds of stores and walls. This is also something that says Big City.

I first saw Toronto in the mid 1980's and outside the downtown core, it was like a big Ontario town in many respects. I mean, coming from Ottawa, streets like College or Danforth or Queen east were not really foreign to me (think Preston, Dalhousie, Wellington West) - they were just longer. And streets like Lawrence, Ellesmere, Wilson... can you say Carling, Merivale, Heron...? What was impressive about Toronto was downtown, the CN Tower, the Skydome, and the amount of cars and people on the streets.

In retrospect, Montreal has been a big city for 300 years, Toronto has been a big city for 30 years (I mean a real big city), and at the end of the day it's all in the size of what I call the "pedestrian city". Montreal's is much older and was always much larger, but the amount of infill in Toronto is levelling the playing field.

In Montreal you can pretty much function on foot (meaning stores, services, quick and direct public transport to other places) anywhere from (roughly) the St. Lawrence to Villeray to the north and between NDG and the Olympic Stadium. In Toronto, these days and from what I know of it, that would be between the Gardiner and Lawrence, and between High Park and about Coxwell. So they're becoming equivalent, except that Montreal doesn't have as much infill activity and it seems to have proportionally a lot more sprawl to the 450's than Toronto to the 905's.

It will always be a fact for me, though, that the charm of an old urban fabric like Montreal's will always have an extra special something. The miles of streets with small houses that have their front door right on the street with no front yard at all, all side by side, all walk-up, on streets that still manage to be extremely green because of the massive canopy of trees along the sidewalks, that kicks ass. To see those streets and houses all fixed up and full of kids just adds more charm to the place.

[RTD]

Originally Posted by caltrane74

That intersection at portage and main is very impressive, i'll give Winnipeg that.

Feel free to give us a lot more, as Winnipeg is indeed a hell of a lot more than just the intersection of Portage and Main.

[caltrane74]

Originally Posted by RTD

Feel free to give us a lot more, as Winnipeg is indeed a hell of a lot more than just the intersection of Portage and Main.

That was said with respect to the theme of the thread assumed to be what makes a city feel big. If it was meant as compliment just might be the last one I ever make if based soley on your reaction.

[caltrane74]

nothing on yonge street feels tiny. your perspective is being warped by the century old storefronts. our past of 100 years ago... just look up or down yonge street, anchored by massive skyscrapers at both ends in the core.. 2 bloor east/2 bloor west looking north and the financial district looking south.. then more skysrapers trailing up and down for miles without end...nothing smalltown about that.. yonge street always getting knocked but seems to be destination number for quebecers and westerners once they've arrived here....

[Winnipegger@Heart]

Portage & Main would be a hell of a lot more appealing if the original office buildings that were demolished in the 60s-80s were still standing and restored. Now, the corner is too cold and uninviting.

I wish Montreal had a few 1000 foot towers, etc, but it has all the charm of a European city, rich with architectural wonderment...an amazing city.

[WhipperSnapper]

Speaking of skyscrapers, one wonders if early 20th century Toronto would of held so many titles were it not for Montreal's 10 storey policy. Also, I wonder if the TD Centre was in any way a response to Toronto looking up to Montreal? The last half of the 1960s may be the first where Toronto saw itself as being more than a collection of hamlets which also coincides with a major influx from the rest of Europe.

I know a few people who left Montreal for Toronto in the 1970s and 80s. They correctly viewed Toronto as a place of more business opportunity but saw it as quiet and culturally challenged

I know Montrealers who today consider Toronto as a culturally challenged place with more business opportunities. These opinions from the 70s and 80s certainly have grounds but I'm not convinced they were that on target either.

Nondescript? I see your own viewpoint continues to be as jaded.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Sacamano

I know Montrealers who today consider Toronto as a culturally challenged place with more business opportunities. These opinions from the 70s and 80s certainly have grounds but I'm not convinced they were that on target either.

that's a silly opinion i think; i certainly don't share it. toronto is a very animated, very alive place culturally. what it lacks in mystique it more than makes up for in its simple wealth of talented young people.