Graffiti, Art or Vandalism?

[Millstone]

Originally Posted by adam

Do people really think that once taggers are punished everything will be solved? Think about the boarded up buildings, the depressed downtown, its a recipe for this kind of stuff.

When social programs were cut back in Bob Rae's day, these kids were barely born. They grew up with a lack of social support programs, and now we're seeing the result. Either learn to live with this crap or support social programs. A huge chunk of Hamilton's youths live below the poverty line. They are society's problem. Tagging is the least of our worries.

They are not my problem, they are their parents' problem. Where are they?

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by adam

Do people really think that once taggers are punished everything will be solved? Think about the boarded up buildings, the depressed downtown, its a recipe for this kind of stuff.

When social programs were cut back in Bob Rae's day, these kids were barely born. They grew up with a lack of social support programs, and now we're seeing the result. Either learn to live with this crap or support social programs. A huge chunk of Hamilton's youths live below the poverty line. They are society's problem. Tagging is the least of our worries.

I'm sure most will agree with me, that there are tags on a great many buildings in the City of Hamilton that aren't vacant. In fact there are more tagged in-use buildings in the city than vacant ones. Also, just because a building is vacant doesn't mean we should turn it over to graffiti perpetrators. Vacant property does not give anyone carte blanche.

Also, I believe many of the social programs you reference were cut back during the Harris government, not Bob Rae's.

So you are saying we shouldn't care about graffiti (tagging). If you are so open to it, please pm me your address and if I see any "artists" in my travels, I'd like to send a few over to your house. Also, if they are so poor why are they spending their finite resource (money) on spray paint...........

Stopping/cleaning graffiti ties in closely to the Broken Window Theory.

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by Millstone

They are not my problem, they are their parents' problem. Where are they?

The last few perps were in their 20's, their parents clearly failed. The parents didn't only fail these individuals, they failed the community.

[DC83]

^^ You can't blame one's parents for their activities. That's like blaming Marilyn Manson for High School shootings.

Society failed to keep these kids occupied by eliminating arts programs & classes, by forcing kids to hang out behind schools/rec centres rather than allowing them inside free of charge to play sports, etc.

What if their parents weren't able to afford activities for them? That's not their fault. If we had sufficient funding for these types of preventative programs, some of these kids probably wouldn't be in this situation.

So to blame one's parents alone is simply wrong.

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by DC83

^^ You can't blame one's parents for their activities. That's like blaming Marilyn Manson for High School shootings.

Society failed to keep these kids occupied by eliminating arts programs & classes, by forcing kids to hang out behind schools/rec centres rather than allowing them inside free of charge to play sports, etc.

What if their parents weren't able to afford activities for them? That's not their fault. If we had sufficient funding for these types of preventative programs, some of these kids probably wouldn't be in this situation.

So to blame one's parents alone is simply wrong.

But, it's the parents roll to instill right from wrong in their children. How to be a positive impact on a community/society. Sometimes the "It's not my (or their) fault, it's the fault of society", gets a little tiresome.

Sure things can always be better with more services, just like some people can be better parents to, and for, their children. Example, the other day I saw a visibly pregnant young lady lighting a cigarette. Hey, it's 2008, not 1978, but it goes to show that some bad parenting is unavoidable.........

[Dundasguy]

Originally Posted by DC83

^^ You can't blame one's parents for their activities. That's like blaming Marilyn Manson for High School shootings.

Society failed to keep these kids occupied by eliminating arts programs & classes, by forcing kids to hang out behind schools/rec centres rather than allowing them inside free of charge to play sports, etc.

What if their parents weren't able to afford activities for them? That's not their fault. If we had sufficient funding for these types of preventative programs, some of these kids probably wouldn't be in this situation.

So to blame one's parents alone is simply wrong.

Think you're missing the point here. Shootings have nothing to do with vandalism. It's all about personal responsibilty and all the programs in the world can't replace parenting.

BTW, You sound like a spokesman for the NDP, are you a member of the Party?

[FairHamilton]

I noticed yesterday morning the inside windows on much of the Royal Connaught, the section at the corner of King & John have acquired spray paint over many floors.

[raisethehammer]

I've browsed a few photo tours of US cities recently...lots of empty, decayed districts and buildings...but one thing I noticed is that almost all of them are boarded up and clean-looking. I don't recall seeing any like the Connaught or Dundurn South property. I'm talking crap-holes like inner city Buffalo, Saginaw, Mich etc.....

[SteelTown]

Property standard enforce is very low in Hamilton. This is evident when traveling outside of Hamilton.

Though last I heard the city changed and hired more enforcements. It’s includes having some dressed up in camouflage and look tough.

[matt602]

Originally Posted by FairHamilton

I noticed yesterday morning the inside windows on much of the Royal Connaught, the section at the corner of King & John have acquired spray paint over many floors.

Yep. Because the building is wide open, again. A bit of an attempt was made to seal it up back when the Stinson fiasco was hot in the news, but now that it has quieted down, the owners have gone back to not giving a crap about it. Thanks Tony. Your security is "grrrrrreat!"

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

Property standard enforce is very low in Hamilton. This is evident when traveling outside of Hamilton.

Though last I heard the city changed and hired more enforcements. It’s includes having some dressed up in camouflage and look tough.

You're telling me, http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...=151749&page=3.

Here's the stats on my complaint of July 23, 2008.
- 54 Days for bylaw to issue a notice
- Day 17 since issuance of notice and as of today no action by property owner, or most importantly the city.

The property owner has 5 days to address, if not the city will take over...... 5 days, huh...

If not for my repeated requests for action by the city, the most recent one on Tuesday asking for the city to take action on the property, this one would never be addressed. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd have to be this persistant on a complaint.

Things need to change with this process.

[go_leafs_go02]

Do you think..potentially..some of the problems are that like..too few people in hamilton EVER get out of the city and can compare to how other cities are maintained or how bylaws are enforced? Like maybe that's why some of the same councilors are voted in, people don't know there is a better, that things can be done. If anyone is happy with the status quo of Hamilton, something honestly is wrong. No way anyone should just be fine with the spraypainting of the "Ghetto Connaught" or any abandoned building sitting there rotting away, without being kept in good tact, and by that I mean, tag free, fresh/replaced yearly plywood.

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

Do you think..potentially..some of the problems are that like..too few people in hamilton EVER get out of the city and can compare to how other cities are maintained or how bylaws are enforced? Like maybe that's why some of the same councilors are voted in, people don't know there is a better, that things can be done. If anyone is happy with the status quo of Hamilton, something honestly is wrong. No way anyone should just be fine with the spraypainting of the "Ghetto Connaught" or any abandoned building sitting there rotting away, without being kept in good tact, and by that I mean, tag free, fresh/replaced yearly plywood.

I'm puzzled by it myself. It's against Property Standards to have graffiti on buildings, but it's either people don't issue a complaint, or the complaints fall on deaf ears at the city.

I'm not sure which, but it's my thought it's probably a combination of the two. If property owners were required (i.e. standards enforced) to keep their buildings clear of graffiti and clean it up once it's was applied I thnk a few things would happen.

1. Property owners would properly secure their buildings, both physically and with better lighting, cutting bushes, etc.
2. The owners would get fed up with the added expense it was costing their bottom line (personal or corporate) and would put pressure on the city to clamp down on the perps with the spray paint cans.
3. The city would tell the police to enforce to the fullest extent of the law, no more turning the kids over to their parents. And they would work to ensure sentences were appropriate.
4. Less graffiti would happen and less would be visible (i.e. it would be removed).

Upward spirals work the same as downward spirals.

[go_leafs_go02]

What I want to know is, how poor is this city in a financial sense? do they have the money to pay for bylaw enforcement? I look around and see at how they cheap out on a lot of things here in how they're built and designed (and fear for the same in a LRT line sense). I know they invest far too much money into the welfare system since being downloaded in the 1990s from the province, but still.

Is it apathy? is it financial shortfall? Neither? or a combination of the two? I don't know

Like today, overhanging a sidewalk on John, is a pot light out of the Ghetto Connaught building. The plaster surrounding it rotted out, the pot light fell through, and is hanging a good foot or two lower than the roof overhang now. I just noticed it today, but like, it will be here in a week's time most likely.

[matt602]

Some examples of the new "art" in the Royal Connaught:





Oh Cozmo you silly boy.

[go_leafs_go02]

That pisses me off beyond belief.

I bet any other city in Canada could get that building filled and occupied.

[MsMe]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

That pisses me off beyond belief.

I hear you on that, it's such a beautiful old building.

An interesting site I just found on the history of the hotel. It sure was quite impressive in it's time in many ways.

http://www.theconnaught.ca/hotelhistory.html

[matt602]

That timeline doesn't even tell the half of it. The hotel was one of the most prestigious in North America in it's prime.

[MsMe]

Originally Posted by matt602

That timeline doesn't even tell the half of it. The hotel was one of the most prestigious in North America in it's prime.

No doubt about that Matt, and so sad to see it at the state it's at now.

[raisethehammer]

the building owners are to blame. Thugs.
They need to seal the place up.
And the city needs to get off their duffs and start slapping huge fines on them, not just brewing back-room deals with these thugs all the time.