Region-Wide Tolling

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by moosejaw

Then i would go south to the good ol USA to fill up every week
even when we lived in East Van with my families four cars, it made sense to do so.

To be honest with you I've never put canadian gas in any of my cars when i lived up there.

The gas tax concept is a dying breed since electric cars are going to take over. I also fill up across the border as much as possible. The savings pays for my US shopping trips.... double dipping!!

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by s211

Good gracious. Why make it so hard? Just tax gas consumption.

Otherwise, all I read here are complicated programs practically tailor-made to bring out the cheat in far too many "contributors" in our society.

I am going to guess that the vast majority of people wouldn't cheat. It's like the SkyTrain fare avoidance issue before faregates came in, but at a much much lower level. "Everybody" knows "someone" who cheats therefore cheating is rampant, but this report says the chance of a car having its odometer rolled back is about 3.5%. That's much lower than, say, insurance fraud rates which are estimated to be between 10 and 20%.

That said, we already have a gas tax and it's not good enough. As others have pointed out, improving gas mileage in IC vehicles and the growing shift to hybrid or all-electric cars means that less gas is being sold, so gas taxes aren't a stable source of income. Further, a road takes the same amount of damage from an IC vehicle as it does an electric vehicle, so it takes the same amount of money to maintain even if all of the vehicles are 100% electric. Further, it's even easier to "cheat" than rolling back an odometer by going outside of Metro Vancouver to purchase your gas. Further, you can't change it easily or use it to tailor congestion relief.

A gas tax is a sledgehammer approach. Heavy, indiscriminate, and not at all the right tool to try to solve congestion.

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

I am going to guess that the vast majority of people wouldn't cheat. It's like the SkyTrain fare avoidance issue before faregates came in, but at a much much lower level. "Everybody" knows "someone" who cheats therefore cheating is rampant, but this report says the chance of a car having its odometer rolled back is about 3.5%. That's much lower than, say, insurance fraud rates which are estimated to be between 10 and 20%.

That said, we already have a gas tax and it's not good enough. As others have pointed out, improving gas mileage in IC vehicles and the growing shift to hybrid or all-electric cars means that less gas is being sold, so gas taxes aren't a stable source of income. Further, a road takes the same amount of damage from an IC vehicle as it does an electric vehicle, so it takes the same amount of money to maintain even if all of the vehicles are 100% electric. Further, it's even easier to "cheat" than rolling back an odometer by going outside of Metro Vancouver to purchase your gas. Further, you can't change it easily or use it to tailor congestion relief.

A gas tax is a sledgehammer approach. Heavy, indiscriminate, and not at all the right tool to try to solve congestion.

This is the message I want most people to take. Yes, there will be cheaters to any system we implement -and yes there were various ways to evade the tolling reader on Hwy #1.

The NDP has really set this region back a few decades...bringing back any tolling mechanism will likely be political suicide for any reigning party! It's a shame because I think the system was perhaps the best way to encourage transit ridership and carpooling over the bridge. Now? You are either stuck in the HOV lane or on a bus (and buses are stuck on the through-lanes).

The gas tax is a garbage tax. Commuters do not care about gas prices and it is far from a deterrence.

So we are left at this predicament...and I think a per KM pricing is perhaps the best measure.

[cabotp]

The problem is the more fair a system becomes to people and how they drive the more it will affect their privacy.

The fairest system would be to simply have a gps unit installed on every vehicle. Then you would be charged not only for how much you drive but also where you drive. You could be charged far more to drive in downtown vancouver, than to drive in langley. Of course the downside is that the govt would always know where you are driving. So it has privacy concerns.

A bridge toll is less fair in that in only penalizes those who cross a bridge. But it also has less privacy concerns. The govt can only tell when you cross the bridge and beyond that they don't know where you drive so there is less of a privacy concern.

An odometer reading has less of privacy concern but it also is less fair to people in general.

[Chikinlittle]

Originally Posted by cabotp

Giving your odometer reading is a blank approach as well. While it is better than a gas tax. It still isn't the best approach.

The problem is the more fair a system becomes to people and how they drive the more it will affect their privacy.

The fairest system would be to simply have a gps unit installed on every vehicle. Then you would be charged not only for how much you drive but also where you drive. You could be charged far more to drive in downtown vancouver, than to drive in langley. Of course the downside is that the govt would always know where you are driving. So it has privacy concerns.

A bridge toll is less fair in that in only penalizes those who cross a bridge. But it also has less privacy concerns. The govt can only tell when you cross the bridge and beyond that they don't know where you drive so there is less of a privacy concern.

An odometer reading has less of privacy concern but it also is less fair to people in general.

How is an odometer reading less fair?

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Chikinlittle

How is an odometer reading less fair?

It doesn't track whether you accumulated the miles inside or outside the zone where the roads are priced.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by Chikinlittle

How is an odometer reading less fair?

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

It doesn't track whether you accumulated the miles inside or outside the zone where the roads are priced.

i.e. you take a road trip to Calgary and back, you'd be charged the whole trip as if you did it in the chargeable area.

[moosejaw]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

i.e. you take a road trip to Calgary and back, you'd be charged the whole trip as if you did it in the chargeable area.

Odometers can be manipulated as well
Doesnt matter the technology.

[twoNeurons]

Easy. Increase property tax. Houses don't move... they are affixed to a road which brings people and services to it. Whether you drive or not doesn't affect whether the transportation options benefit you or not.

Wait... we tried that.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Easy. Increase property tax. Houses don't move... they are affixed to a road which brings people and services to it. Whether you drive or not doesn't affect whether the transportation options benefit you or not.

Wait... we tried that.

One of the purposes of mobility pricing is to reduce congestion by a) trying to reduce the number of kilometers travelled per person, and b) shifting vehicle traffic to other areas or times by having area- or time-variable pricing. It's not primarily about a source of funding, it has other benefits as well.

Increasing property tax does not reduce congestion, nor does increasing a sales tax.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Easy. Increase property tax.

That doesn't link a trip with a cost the way a per-km or a bridge toll does. The purpose of mobility pricing isn't just to raise money, it's also to ease congestion. And the best way to do that is for it to be very obvious that trip X is going to cost you Y dollars.

It's surprising the lengths to which people will go to avoid paying even a modest charge when it's laid out like that. It's not rational, because the cost of depreciation, maintenance, gas, time etc. is usually far, far greater. But people are not rational creatures.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

That doesn't link a trip with a cost the way a per-km or a bridge toll does. The purpose of mobility pricing isn't just to raise money, it's also to ease congestion. And the best way to do that is for it to be very obvious that trip X is going to cost you Y dollars.

It's surprising the lengths to which people will go to avoid paying even a modest charge when it's laid out like that. It's not rational, because the cost of depreciation, maintenance, gas, time etc. is usually far, far greater. But people are not rational creatures.

Totally agree with this. But I also think a portion of property tax should directly be given to transport. Unfortunately, I don't see a reversal of tolls for a while... and we'll be stuck with congestion for even longer.

[ClaytonA]

Originally Posted by cabotp

The problem is the more fair a system becomes to people and how they drive the more it will affect their privacy.

The fairest system would be to simply have a gps unit installed on every vehicle. Then you would be charged not only for how much you drive but also where you drive. You could be charged far more to drive in downtown vancouver, than to drive in langley. Of course the downside is that the govt would always know where you are driving. So it has privacy concerns.

A bridge toll is less fair in that in only penalizes those who cross a bridge. But it also has less privacy concerns. The govt can only tell when you cross the bridge and beyond that they don't know where you drive so there is less of a privacy concern.

...

Do you have an andriod phone? Do you have location turned off? If not log in, go to google maps and open Your Timeline in the menu on the left hand side. (I'm sure Apple has something too, as many apps need your location to function).

There are companies paid to statistically assess road safety that use your smart phone's accelerometers, etc. never mind knowing where you go. That horse has left the barn. But don't worry it's a big multinational corporation, not a government you can vote in and out, that owns all your data.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by ClaytonA

Do you have an andriod phone? Do you have location turned off? If not log in, go to google maps and open Your Timeline in the menu on the left hand side. (I'm sure Apple has something too, as many apps need your location to function).

There are companies paid to statistically assess road safety that use your smart phone's accelerometers, etc. never mind knowing where you go. That horse has left the barn. But don't worry it's a big multinational corporation, not a government you can vote in and out, that owns all your data.

Maybe my previous message was miss understood. I never said I was against the idea of using a gps tracker to track where we all drive and then charge us accordingly. But I also know that if they do implement that that there will be others that will complain about the privacy implications of doing that. Even though as you said we are already being tracked.

[stiffdeadman]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

i.e. you take a road trip to Calgary and back, you'd be charged the whole trip as if you did it in the chargeable area.

exactly. i drive down to seattle a few times a year. no friggen way they are charging me for that. as was stated above trying a per km charge will be political suicide for the mayors and the provincial govt.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by stiffdeadman

exactly. i drive down to seattle a few times a year. no friggen way they are charging me for that. as was stated above trying a per km charge will be political suicide for the mayors and the provincial govt.

How do you suggest they implement mobility pricing in a way that would be fair to you and doesn't charge you for when you drive outside of Metro Vancouver?

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

How do you suggest they implement mobility pricing in a way that would be fair to you and doesn't charge you for when you drive outside of Metro Vancouver?

toll gantries at all on-ramp and off-ramps on all limited access roads; i.e. all freeways. with signs alerting to the fact you are in a "toll-road area" and that this freeway has "distance tolls" on it. such as when they had all those signs "last exit before toll bridge" "This lane toll bridge" "toll bridge ahead"

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by cabotp

I never said I was against the idea of using a gps tracker to track where we all drive and then charge us accordingly. But I also know that if they do implement that that there will be others that will complain about the privacy implications of doing that.

I have a feeling that if an optional tracker-based system were implemented that had a substantially lower cost for tracker-equipped vehicles vs. a more expensive flat-rate fee, then most people's principled stand against being tracked might just evaporate.

[Trainguy]

The best mobility pricing strategy for this area is tolling ALL the bridges with a small toll. That way people can't avoid the toll by going to another bridge. However, since the NDP have taken tolls off the table, what else can they reasonably do to manage congestion? Any strategy like clocking km's will have a huge push back and be a management nightmare.

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

Any strategy like clocking km's will have a huge push back and be a management nightmare.

Tolling all bridges would have a huge backlash and management issues too.

Also lots of people will be able to avoid tolls by living in areas that don't have bridges, such as Port Moody. That is patently unfair.