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  #41  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2007, 8:32 PM
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Sean, I totally dig the idea. The residents along 64th might be totally pissed, but if anything it would likely curb traffic speeds in the area (narrow the lanes and put the tracks on the west side of the street along that big sound wall). I almost think you could eliminate the 'motor mile' stop, but there's probably a decent bus line along McDowell at that point to tie into.

The intersection of Priest and Washington (with two rail lines converging) would be pretty interesting. I haven't been over there in ages...is there anything on the SE corner now? (where the Cards Stadium would have been)
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  #42  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2007, 8:44 PM
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^ No, there's still nothing on that corner (at least last time I checked). The northeast corner is built now, with a small shopping center and some offices.

I wonder how the idea of a streetcar in the middle of Galvin Pkwy would be received. Right now the median is still desert landscaped, which, in my opinion, works pretty well for blending in with the Park. City parks people might have a problem with taking that out. Either way, though, I like the concept.
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  #43  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2007, 12:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForAteOh View Post
^ This streetcar line is just an idea that combusean came up with. It's not currently being proposed by the City of Phoenix or Valley Metro or any other entity that I'm aware of (I believe there is a study going on looking at transit options including BRT, LRT, and streetcars for Scottsdale Rd, but it is still in teh study stages).

If your question was referring to the LRT in Phoenix in general, the first 20 miles are now under construction (complete in late 2008) and an additional 28 miles have been approved but have yet to begin construction or final design.
Thanks.
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  #44  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2007, 1:12 AM
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South Mountain Freeway

Any word if their going build a Tunnel on S Mountain yet ?
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  #45  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2007, 3:28 AM
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Originally Posted by FireMedic View Post
Any word if their going build a Tunnel on S Mountain yet ?
The plan is to go around, not through S Mountain
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  #46  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2007, 8:14 PM
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Mass transit options have state leaders abuzz
By Daniel Scarpinato
ARIZONA DAILY STAR
Tucson, Arizona | Published: 01.16.2007

Quote:
PHOENIX — Trains, lanes and automobiles.

Those are the big options on the table as state leaders prepare for millions of new cars expected to clog our roads and freeways over the next two decades, pumping out tons more pollution to cloud the skies.

With rapid growth, lawmakers say transportation seems to be a hotter topic now than it has been in years.

Last week Gov. Janet Napolitano signed an executive order for the Arizona Department of Transportation to look into mass transit options.

The move has the mayors of Tucson and Phoenix, as well as some legislators, beaming about the possibility of a commuter train between the two cities. With the order, ADOT is putting the pedal to the metal to update a 1998 study on the train within the next 90 days.
Imagine: Hop on the train, take a seat, even open up your laptop to surf the Web — and before you know it, you're in Phoenix for shopping, sports, business or a weekend at a spa. And never give a thought to wildly fluctuating, ever higher gas prices.

Likewise, Phoenicians could enjoy hiking, art galleries, summer resort discounts and the more relaxed ambiance Tucson has to offer.

Since the concept has been discussed for years and always resulted in nothing more than studies, some wonder if the excitement is premature.

This time, however, with the corridor between Tucson and Phoenix anticipating major growth over the next decade, advocates can already hear the sound of whistles blowing. But completion might be years away, even if it received the massive funding needed to get off the drawing board.

"We already have the need to expand I-10 to (six) full lanes between Phoenix and Tucson," said Tucson Mayor Bob Walkup. "But right behind that you're really looking at, what we need in the future is a way to move people between those populated areas and stay off the roads."

Walkup and Phoenix Mayor Phil Gordon say they've been working together on the issue for three years and see the governor's order as a major turning point.

"There have been a lot of folks who have expressed interest to the governor. A lot of elected officials and basically the community transit organizations," said Shannon Scutari, the governor's policy adviser for growth and infrastructure.

But the governor is waiting to see what ADOT reports, and is interested in examining solutions statewide, Scutari said.

Walkup and Gordon were expecting a specific mention of the train in the governor's address. She didn't do that. Still, her call on the Department of Transportation to study a commuter train is "music to my ears," Gordon said.

The rail makes sense because "it's no longer city against city in this state," Gordon said. "It's region against the rest of the world."

In the 1998 report done by ADOT, the department concluded that at that time, a commuter train would cost at least $380 million.

All aboard?

Chantal Ottino seems like the ideal customer for a commuter train.

All too often, the 21-year-old University of Arizona accounting senior gets homesick for her family in north Phoenix. So at least once a month, you'll find her speeding up Interstate 10 in her black Ford Mustang.

Traffic is a constant problem.

"When there's an accident, it can get backed up forever, and then you're stuck," she says.

Still, when it comes to riding a train, "I'm torn," she says.

"I like to leave when I want to leave," Ottino says, and boarding a train at 9 p.m. in Downtown Tucson — well, that could be dangerous.

Plus, "Leaving my car? That would be hard. How am I going to go to the clubs in Scottsdale?" she says, laughing.

And that's the big dilemma: How to get around in either city, both built around the car culture of the post-1950s.

"You would still have the same problems of congestion within Maricopa (County) and Tucson even if the rail moved you from point A to point B," said Darcy Olsen, president of the Goldwater Institute, a Phoenix think tank that advocates smaller government.
But Gordon and Walkup both say that issue is working itself out already. Phoenix has started a light-rail system, and Walkup pointed to plans for a streetcar system in Downtown Tucson.

Still, Olsen says advocates "don't seem to take into account individual preferences, which is people prefer to drive. (Rail) is impractical and undesirable."

Steve Farley disagrees. Farley, a freshman Democratic state representative from Tucson and advocate of mass transit, says the best time to introduce a passenger railway is during expansion of Interstate 10, when people are looking for an alternative to avoid construction. Federal funds can help, he said.

As for demand, Farley points to a new state-subsidized railway in New Mexico, the "Rail Runner," which will eventually connect Santa Fe with Albuquerque.

"All the stars are aligning, with gas going through the roof and all the consequences of global warming issues and all the people in the business community seeing how much money is available from development along rail."

Funding conflicts

But funding for a railway may collide with money for road improvements and expansions.
A proposal to spend $450 million of the state's $650 million rainy day fund for road construction is already on the legislative table. Napolitano opposes dipping into those funds and instead wants to refinance bonds to pay for construction.

"I guess it all comes down to how you define emergency," Bob Burns, a Peoria Republican and chair of the Senate Appropriations Committee, said last week. "If we can stimulate the economy and help speed up our transportation construction … and at least keep up with the flow of people who are coming here, maybe we can prevent an emergency."

Meanwhile, Democrats in the House have already started talking about an increase in the gas tax, while Olsen is pushing for the state to look at efforts elsewhere, like having a private developer build a toll highway, as is being done in Texas.
From all those choices, Farley is hopeful the train will be included in the mix of solutions. "I haven't really come across anyone who's against that," he said.

For the full text of the governor's order go to azstarnet.com/transportation

Contact reporter Daniel Scarpinato at 307-4339 or dscarpinato@azstarnet.com.
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  #47  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2007, 3:17 PM
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Here's a similar article from today's Republic focusing on commuter rail.
Quote:
Governor pursues plan for commuter-rail lines
Target for Tucson, Phoenix link: 2012

Sean Holstege
The Arizona Republic
Jan. 20, 2007 12:00 AM


Arizona is moving to play a major role in bringing commuter rail to the Valley and between Phoenix and Tucson.

The Arizona Department of Transportation is days away from asking bidders to plan a passenger rail line connecting Phoenix and Tucson by Centennial Day, Feb. 14, 2012.

This comes after Gov. Janet Napolitano gave ADOT 90 days to list the best potential rail projects and detail the best ways to pay for them. advertisement




The arrival of commuter rail in Arizona is not a guarantee because some lawmakers oppose rail, saying it isn't worth the subsidy. But involvement by the state increases the chance that it could become a reality. The state's role was a deciding factor in bringing commuter rail to Utah and New Mexico.

"The governor clearly believes that we have to explore these options and implement some," said Jeanine L'Ecuyer, Napolitano's spokeswoman. "She wants wide-open thinking on this subject. She's serious about these executive orders. She expects results and does not want these studies to be a book on the shelf."

Jim Dickey, ADOT Public Transit Division director, said no option is off the table. His team will be looking at a wide range of rail projects, from new or expedited local light-rail extensions around Phoenix to longer and faster commuter-rail lines to the West Valley and southeast Valley and a Phoenix-Tucson train. Other potential projects are connecting a people-mover system at Sky Harbor International Airport to conventional rail lines and local tracks in and around Tucson or Flagstaff.

What is less clear is what role the state would play in making any of these services happen. ADOT and the governor's staff are coy on the subject.

Options include:


• Advancing state funds to engineer a rail network.


• Using surplus state money or other funds as a down payment on construction or to acquire rights-of-way.


• Passing laws to create a statewide or multicounty rail agency.


• Passing laws to streamline design and construction bidding to speed up existing or future rail projects.


• Putting a statewide bond on the ballot, probably for over $1 billion, to build a system.


State's involvement?
"Everybody seems to be concluding that a major state role in Arizona will be necessary," said Kathryn Pett, an attorney who has been informally advising Napolitano's office and ADOT for about a year.

Pett, of the Phoenix-based firm Snell and Wilmer, brokered right-of-way and track-sharing deals in Utah and New Mexico between public agencies and rail-freight companies. Pett said involvement by the governors in those states was instrumental in persuading rail companies to negotiate seriously.

Any moves by ADOT or the governor will draw scrutiny, however.

"Passenger rail is a big loser," said Senate Transportation Committee Chairman Ron Gould, a Lake Havasu City Republican. Arguing that fares don't cover costs and that rail doesn't take enough people off freeways, Gould said, "For me, rail is a non-starter."

Senate Majority Whip John Huppenthal, R-Chandler, said traffic congestion is deteriorating so badly that he wouldn't "be against anything," adding, "We need a new vision. The question is whether our leaders are up to it."


Long-overdue link
Rail advocate and freshman state Rep. Steve Farley, D-Tucson, said connecting his city and Phoenix by rail should have happened 10 years ago.

"I haven't heard anybody of any political party or ideology who's opposed to this," Farley said. "It's real because everybody wants it so badly."

Commuter rail, which employs larger trains and fewer stops than light rail, would mean leasing tracks or rights-of-way from rail-freight companies.

In Arizona, the freight giants are Union Pacific and Burlington Northern and Santa Fe railroads.

Union Pacific officials said they have told the governor's staff in informal talks that starting passenger service in Arizona will be unusually challenging. Unlike other Western states, there is much less redundant track here.

A Burlington Northern spokeswoman said the company has not had talks with Arizona officials but is open to them.

ADOT is due to release a study by the end of the month detailing the amount, condition and capacity of existing freight lines.

The Maricopa Association of Governments just launched a $300,000, year-long study to determine the demand for commuter service around Phoenix and how best to link it to urban light-rail track now under construction.
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  #48  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2007, 3:41 PM
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^I read that this morning as well, too bad there wouldn't be a link from Flagstaff-Phoenix. I know a lot of NAU students (as well as tourists) would probably use that.
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  #49  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2007, 4:53 PM
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Sky Harbor Control Tower Opened 1-13-07

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepu...tower1030.html

"... The new tower is designed to better accommodate the volume of air traffic that currently passes through the airport, as well as handle future growth.

Sky Harbor saw a record 41.2 million passengers in 2005 and is ranked among the busiest airports in the country.

Last year, it recorded more than 555,000 takeoffs and landings; that number is expected to grow to 670,000 by 2015. By then, the airport will serve an estimated 50 million passengers annually.

"The airport is a lot busier today and has a lot more structures than it used to," Deputy Aviation Director Deborah Ostreicher said. "We're so excited to have this open because it really will help us meet our needs now and in the future."

One advantage of the new tower is its height. It stands 326 feet tall - 125 feet taller than the old tower to the west of it. That gives it an unobstructed view of the airport grounds."

The new tower is roughly the equivalent of a 30-story building and is the third-tallest of its kind in the world. Only those in Munich, Germany, and Atlanta soar higher.






Last edited by JimInCal; Jan 20, 2007 at 5:08 PM. Reason: Changed opening date
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  #50  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2007, 6:12 PM
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Quote:
The new tower is roughly the equivalent of a 30-story building and is the third-tallest of its kind in the world. Only those in Munich, Germany, and Atlanta soar higher.
Not quite sure what 'of its kind' specifies, but the control tower at DIA is 327 feet.
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  #51  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2007, 7:08 PM
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I just confirmed your 327 footer on the DIA web site. I would think a control tower is a control tower so I'm not sure what they mean by "of its type." We'll give you the nod @ 1 foot higher.
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  #52  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2007, 7:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimInCal View Post

The new tower is roughly the equivalent of a 30-story building and is the third-tallest of its kind in the world. Only those in Munich, Germany, and Atlanta soar higher.
so let me get this straight... its the third tallest, but there are 4 listed that are taller....?
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  #53  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2007, 7:16 PM
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The towers at Kuala Lumpur and Inchon are also taller (there may be more).

Still, I thought the base of the new tower was supposed to be round? It's a nice design, but would look so much better with a cylindrical base.
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  #54  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2007, 12:01 AM
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There are evidently others in the world that are taller. I wish the article had been specific about what was meant by "of its kind." That may solve the mystery. Regardless, it's one of the taller control towers and the Phoenix skyline needs all the help it can get.
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  #55  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2007, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by John_Vandercook View Post
so let me get this straight... its the third tallest, but there are 4 listed that are taller....?
John,

There are only two listed...Munich is a large city in Germany. "Munich, Germany"
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  #56  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2007, 6:23 AM
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Regarding the commuter rail situation first (I was in a rush when I posted that article this morning and didn't have time to comment on it, or even read it!) first of all, this really pisses me off...

Quote:
The arrival of commuter rail in Arizona is not a guarantee because some lawmakers oppose rail, saying it isn't worth the subsidy.
Why is rail not worth the subsidy, especially if freeways are? People who say we need more freeways need only to look at the Los Angeles area to have their opinions totally invalidated. The LA area was built with the idea that freeways would connect all suburbs and that it would be a haven for people wanting to live the "American Dream" and go wherever they pleased at whatever time. Well, how is traffic in LA now? How pleasant/convenient is it to go from one side of that city to the other in your personal vehicle? I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir on this one for a lot of you, but I really don't understand the mentality behind adding more freeways or more capacity to existing freeways. Ok, so I'm done ranting on that point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HooverDam View Post
^I read that this morning as well, too bad there wouldn't be a link from Flagstaff-Phoenix. I know a lot of NAU students (as well as tourists) would probably use that.
I am all for rail all over the city and the state. I think that, if commuter rail catches on, and if Tucson-Phoenix rail catches on, there is a better chance of seeing Phoenix-Flagstaff rail. It is a lot easier now to imagine Tucson-Phoenix rail because the population in Tucson is so much larger than in Flag. Add to that the existing freight lines and relatively flat grade between the Phoenix and Tucson areas and it's a shoe-in for commuter rail, IMO. Not to say that there shouldn't be a line between here and Flagstaff, but I just don't know if the student population at NAU (plus other commuters of course) is enough to swing it at this point.

Regarding the new tower at Sky Harbor... I should know more about this than I do - the firm I worked for designed and managed the construction for it! It's out of my area of experience, though, so I don't know too much... I heard when it was being built that it would be the tallest in the US but that ATL was building one that was going to be taller (didn't know about DIA, though). Plinko, I will try to ask around about the design of the base of the tower.
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  #57  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2007, 8:57 AM
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My question about the new tower at PHX is: Why the hell did it take so long to build it? They started building it in the summer of 2004 (I know, because I was working at the airport at the time). This means that it took 30 months to build, which is longer (I believe) than University of Phoenix Stadium. I realize that it's not easy to build something that tall, but the vast majority of it is just a concrete pour around an elevator shaft. It doesn't make sense that it would take as long as it did.
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  #58  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2007, 3:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForAteOh View Post
.....
Why is rail not worth the subsidy, especially if freeways are? People who say we need more freeways need only to look at the Los Angeles area to have their opinions totally invalidated. The LA area was built with the idea that freeways would connect all suburbs and that it would be a haven for people wanting to live the "American Dream" and go wherever they pleased at whatever time. Well, how is traffic in LA now? How pleasant/convenient is it to go from one side of that city to the other in your personal vehicle? I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir on this one for a lot of you, but I really don't understand the mentality behind adding more freeways or more capacity to existing freeways. Ok, so I'm done ranting on that point.
......
I completely agree, I think LA's biggest problem is that it has too many freeways. It seems like you can't drive more than 2 miles without hitting another interchange, and at every interchange traffic slows to a crawl as people try to merge. Hell, even on Saturdays some freeways just crawl along, with no accidents or anything to slow it down. I bet if they scrapped half of their freeways, the traffic situation would improve.
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  #59  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2007, 2:38 PM
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This is an opinion piece from the Republic (former AZ Gov. Bruce Babbit). It's good to see that there seems to be a pretty strong push to get commuter rail going...

Quote:
Let's get ball rolling on rail
Commuter line could link Valley, Tucson; tracks already in place

Bruce Babbitt
My Turn
Jan. 26, 2007 12:00 AM

Gov. Janet Napolitano is calling for more attention to mass transit - and none too soon.

Our state, now the fastest growing in the country, will increase to 14 million from 6 million residents by 2040. And more than 90 percent of these new residents will be living and working in the "Sun Corridor" that extends from Phoenix through Pinal County to Tucson.

We must plan now for commuter rail service across this Sun Corridor from Phoenix through Mesa and the East Valley and down to Tucson. The urgent task is to secure the necessary right of way. Fortunately, the tracks are already in place; all we need is the right to use them for passenger commuter service.

The rail corridor is the Union Pacific track running from Glendale down Grand Avenue, across Phoenix parallel to Washington Street, north of Sky Harbor, across the Salt River into Tempe, on through Mesa and Chandler down to Picacho and into Tucson.

The time is at hand for the governor and Legislature to secure the necessary rights for passenger service along this line.

Here is the game plan: Recall that Union Pacific is asking the state for help to build a new rail switchyard on its main line near Picacho Peak, just north of Tucson. What the railroad needs from the state for that switchyard is some 600 acres of trust land near Picacho.

The state Land Department has already said that it is preparing to sell that land to Union Pacific.

Not so fast. There is the making of a better deal here.

The governor and the State Land Department should say to Union Pacific that they will sell it the land with a condition that it agree to provide the state "trackage rights" for future passenger-rail service on the existing line between Phoenix and Tucson. Perhaps we don't need to put commuter service up immediately, but the time is coming, and it's time to make a deal.

Is it reasonable to ask the railroad for trackage rights for commuter service?

Yes. It's being done all over the country, including in our neighboring states of California and New Mexico.

The most recent example of which I am aware is the new commuter rail service, the "Rail Runner" now operating on the old Santa Fe line between Albuquerque and Santa Fe, thanks to the determined efforts of Gov. Richardson.

Some readers may recall that we have a precedent right here in Arizona. Back in 1980, weeks of winter rain caused heavy flooding, washing out all the highway bridges over the Salt River, effectively cutting Phoenix in two. The only bridge left standing was the rail trestle across the river into Tempe.

Working with the Department of Transportation, as governor, I placed a call to the president of Southern Pacific and asked for help, making it clear that we could not take "no" for an answer.

Railroads don't particularly like to have passenger trains running on their freight lines, but they agreed to help and made it work. Within a couple of days, we had a commuter train, the "Hattie B," up and running between Phoenix and Mesa across the Tempe rail bridge.

Now, a quarter century later, it's time to revive that experience. But this time around, the flood isn't flowing down the Salt River; it's coming in the form of another 7 million residents. It's time to get started before they arrive.



The writer is a former governor of Arizona and a former secretary of the Department of Interior.
It's not quite as simple as just "securing the necessary right of way" of course... We would need stations, rolling stock and service planning, just to name a few things, but in general it wouldn't be too complicated to implement.
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  #60  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2007, 4:06 PM
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you're right that it isn't a complete solution, but it is a necessary first step.
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