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  #21  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2013, 10:37 PM
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phxSUNSfan phxSUNSfan is offline
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Originally Posted by sh9730 View Post
Whatever feelings of success or failure some may have about this project - they definitely appear to be moving forward - hired a pretty heavy hitter as the new CEO:

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/n...betts-ceo.html
Well, now we know it is another real estate ponzi scheme...after the failure of this, who will be on the hook to maintain its underutilized infrastructure? Casa Grande, Pinal County? Perhaps that is why they are avoiding Maricopa County and Phoenix (even Pima County and Tucson)...no desire to rush into another Westgate debacle.

Last edited by phxSUNSfan; Jun 3, 2013 at 11:02 PM.
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  #22  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2013, 12:23 AM
sh9730 sh9730 is offline
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Wow - Im a believer in HEALTHY skepticism - but PHXSUNS after reading your posts in this and other threads here - you seem to be really negative on many types of projects...

Im absolutely sure I wont be the one to change any of your views - so I wont even try.

I for one am more hopeful in the success of this project - notice I said hopeful, not absolutely sure.
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  #23  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2013, 12:29 AM
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Wow - Im a believer in HEALTHY skepticism - but PHXSUNS after reading your posts in this and other threads here - you seem to be really negative on many types of projects...
I'm known as an optomist, thank you very much.

From a business standpoint, this project has all the markings of a real estate scheme. This is Arizona after all...

As for "really negative" on the other types of projects, you must be confused...especially concerning the urban infill and transportation developments. Maybe you were reading along and mixed up my SN and another commenter whose SN begins with Jjs.

Last edited by phxSUNSfan; Jun 4, 2013 at 1:15 AM.
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  #24  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2013, 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by sh9730 View Post
Wow - Im a believer in HEALTHY skepticism - but PHXSUNS after reading your posts in this and other threads here - you seem to be really negative on many types of projects...

Im absolutely sure I wont be the one to change any of your views - so I wont even try.

I for one am more hopeful in the success of this project - notice I said hopeful, not absolutely sure.
I think that there is a legitimate reason to be skeptical. Projects that almost exclusively target foreign investors tend to have much greater risks. As for the CEO, many have a very negative view of what has been done.

If they do get this developed, hopefully it turns out to be a positive. But this forum is plagued with grand projects that never come to fruition.
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  #25  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2013, 2:52 AM
Jjs5056 Jjs5056 is offline
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SUNSfan took the words out of my mouth- I think this project would've been a great fit for the corridor between downtown Tempe and Sky Harbor. From a sustainability and logical standpoint, that location would be ideal with its direct access to the airport, light rail, future commuter rail, talent and research facilities, amenities, etc.

Midrise, dense development makes perfect sense there and would be a boost to the area as a commercial hub and help fill in the swaths of undeveloped land that is an eyesore to visitors entering from the sky. I would much rather see this area develop than areas like Broadway and Priest, given the transit infrastructure.

Additionally, I've always thought the lack of density and residential development in that area was a shame given the amount of amenities and attractions that are all so close together: Papago Park, Phoenix Muni, DBG, Zoo and then Tovrea Castle and the Pueblo Grande a bit further. Building a development that is centered on international commerce and visitors makes sense to be located next to the airport and might finally give this area the attention it deserves. A trolley that looped from the Center Parkway station, down Washington, right on 44th and right on Van Buren (with perhaps an additional loop around the first Galvin Parkway roundabout) would be a great investment- finally linking those attractions with light rail, the airport, etc.

I've digressed. In reality, if this gets built, we will probably see "phase I" (the 4ish story commercial building or two)and not much else for a very long time, unless this funding really does cover everything. And, if it does, why the HELL wasn't anyone in Phoenix looking to take advantage of these incentives?!
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  #26  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2013, 3:19 AM
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JJS - actually Phase I includes the 1.5 million SF vendor space bldg and convention center and then some small ancillary development to support that - if I recall some apts and a general purpose hotel. The mid rises aren't until phase III I think.

Here is a detailed link to the plans submitted for city approval back in 2011/2012 - the artist renderings have changed recently based upon the pics in this thread, but the basic concept and phases are listed:

http://www.casagrandeaz.gov/projects...ap/phxmart.pdf

Also, the project developers actually tout CASA GRANDE'S unique location to rail (we are doubled track all the way through here now and the proposed large yard in Picacho will be nearby), freeway networks (I 8 and I 10) and its location between Phoenix and Tucson as desirable. You can disagree with their propaganda of course, but that's how they are selling it.

As I stated earlier in the thread - the EB-5 program increases the minimum required investment per person based upon certain criteria including unemployment etc. and as such Phoenix proper would have raised that minimum to 1 million per investor vs 500K down here in CG.

Also, as far as I ve been able to determine - and I ve followed it pretty closely - other than some MINIMAL tax give backs to cover infrastructure that this project will pay for up front but then be able to be used for other development (water access - road improvements etc..) there is NO subsidies being offered by government entities - besides the VISA incentive of course.
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  #27  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2013, 3:21 AM
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There's nowhere anywhere within Phoenix that offers hundreds of acres of land pre-assembled like this place does, especially not a site near a light rail line. I assume that the people behind this have bought into the notion or whatever eventuality of the Sun Corridor, and in those regards it is centrally located. I, however, am far more skeptical of growth that connects Phoenix and Tucson...precisely because nothing like this exists already. (no reason for a there to be there.)

I am led to believe that this project is a scam or otherwise completely unfunded.

http://azeb5en.weebly.com/

1.) Bullshit website that cost nothing to build, except for maybe the creative for their logo.

2.) Clearly written by a native Arizonan because nobody else would use "legal immigrants" in a context like that.

3.) Written by an Arizonan with no money of his own to build this thing, because the entire audience for the above is hordes of mythical foreign investors that want to buy their citizenship. Finding one would be a stretch, but hundreds? These people are out of their mind.

4.) If the above is what I think it is, and even tho I'm not an SEC lawyer, their funding scheme smells like its completely unaccredited and possibly illegal.

If they had an investor in mind, maybe some random Chinese billionaire, we'd know that person's name already and it'd be very likely this thing would get built.
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  #28  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2013, 3:32 AM
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Com - PLEASE - the EB-5 investment program is well established and has been around for 20 years or something. There ARE controversies surrounding that program (Google EB-5 visa and you can read about them) but they are not of the type that are a scam. More along the lines that some of the touted jobs don't come to fruition and/or the investment return is not as good as projected. BUT, there are also many success stories out there attributed to the program.

As for the CAC regional site - yeah, pretty weak - but that entity is really just a placeholder to meet the federal requirements of having a "zone". All the real work on this project is being done by AZ Sourcing and company.

Now, if I were to take on the REAL CONSPIRACY theory side of this program (which I don't) - I wouldn't be surprised if much of this money being fronted by the Chinese is from a government source trying to get more foothold in the USA and as such find citizens with a desire to live here to get ahold of this money some way and then become a wealthy "investor" when in reality it is all coming from a small pool of money in China (government or otherwise). Again, Im not that far out there on it...but who knows...?
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  #29  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2013, 3:46 AM
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Originally Posted by combusean View Post
2.) Clearly written by a native Arizonan because nobody else would use "legal immigrants" in a context like that.

3.) Written by an Arizonan with no money of his own to build this thing, because the entire audience for the above is hordes of mythical foreign investors that want to buy their citizenship. Finding one would be a stretch, but hundreds? These people are out of their mind.

4.) If the above is what I think it is, and even tho I'm not an SEC lawyer, their funding scheme smells like its completely unaccredited and possibly illegal.
I am thinking it was written by someone associated with the Chinese Cultural Center given the office address. Probably not a "native Arizonan" since we are rare and most of the people with the strongest objections to "immigrants" stems from new arrivals; older people from California and the Midwest.

The funding "opportunity" is legit, the EB-5 program. Nonetheless, the way it is presented makes me question this investment opportunity's legitimacy. The project does have a "big name CEO" who is a member of the "real estate industrial complex". That being said, the office/headquarters of PhoenixMart would be in Scottsdale but the complex would be built in Casa Grande? So basically, send your money to Scottsdale...maybe something will happen in CG? The whole thing makes me uncomfortable.

Last edited by phxSUNSfan; Jun 4, 2013 at 4:03 AM.
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  #30  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2013, 3:52 AM
Jjs5056 Jjs5056 is offline
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Originally Posted by phxSUNSfan View Post
I'm known as an optomist, thank you very much.

Maybe you were reading along and mixed up my SN and another commenter whose SN begins with Jjs.
Aw. I can take the hint (okay, so not really a hint; more like direct insinuation); I'll try to tone the criticism in general.

If that's going to happen, I'll have to duck out of this thread, though... Not sure I can conjure up anything positive to say here.

Lastly, Sean - the beauty of this kind of development being along light rail or centrally located is that it wouldn't have to be on one piece of land. I don't truly understand what in the heck this actually is, but between land east of Priest near the river bed, land along Priest and Washington, Washington and 44th, etc., I was thinking there was enough space to dedicate to the uses of this thing. I guess it could also grow vertically if it had to all be on one piece of land... I don't know. Of course, that isn't as easy or cheap for those involved. It's obviously not happening in the area I mentioned, but I don't think it's a bad idea to suggest all that open land could be used for a comparable purpose, if I'm understanding that international trade and commerce is at the center.
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  #31  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2013, 3:52 AM
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Casa Grande has every right to seek out opportunities to better their community, and I can't blame them for their excitement for this concept. It sounds interesting.

However, I'm afraid Phoenix Mart is really a trojan horse from the Real Estate Industrial Complex to further their manifest destiny of unsustainable development between Phoenix and Tucson. Demand to live really far from Phoenix has taken a real hit and homebuilders desperately need some amenities on the desert's edge to convince residents to move ever further into ex-urban locales. The promise of PhoenixMart is exactly what they are looking for.

Just watch, once PhoenixMart begins construction the Real Estate Industrial Complex will start the drumbeat of a Buckeye to Casa Grande to Florence freeway because they are potential "growth sectors", and more of the public treasury will be committed to unsustainable development.

I don't hate PhoenixMart, but I wonder why it can't be located in....Phoenix!?
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  #32  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2013, 4:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Jjs5056 View Post
Aw. I can take the hint (okay, so not really a hint; more like direct insinuation); I'll try to tone the criticism in general.
I was mostly being facetious...the nuances of spoken language are often lost online. I should have used more silly emoticons!

There are many reasons why this wouldn't be built in Phoenix although it would, somewhat, make more sense if it was a real project. Although the Gateway area of Phoenix would qualify for the $500k per investor due to its designation as an economically depressed urban zone, the land would be more expensive and the investors would have to assemble multiple lots scattered throughout the 44th St/Washington corridor from dozens of owners. Another thing, Phoenix and Tempe would require extensive financial documentation in order to help this thing along in the Discovery Triangle Development Corporation's incentive zone.
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  #33  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2013, 5:21 AM
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I may have jumped the gun on what I said, but if somebody produces an SEC filing behind that advertisement to sell hundreds of millions of dollars in securities, I'll happily stand corrected. I tried searching Edgar for PhoenixMart, AZ Sourcing (the owner of the domain in question), and Central Arizona Regional Center and found nothing.

My comment about "native arizonans" should have been written "Arizonan with nativist beliefs", ie, those people that are so famously opposed to illegal immigration. Someone without some major issue about it wouldn't have written "legal immigrants" like they do.
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  #34  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2013, 5:42 AM
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Originally Posted by combusean View Post
I may have jumped the gun on what I said, but if somebody produces an SEC filing behind that advertisement to sell hundreds of millions of dollars in securities, I'll happily stand corrected. I tried searching Edgar for PhoenixMart, AZ Sourcing (the owner of the domain in question), and Central Arizona Regional Center and found nothing.

My comment about "native arizonans" should have been written "Arizonan with nativist beliefs", ie, those people that are so famously opposed to illegal immigration. Someone without some major issue about it wouldn't have written "legal immigrants" like they do.
I am not sure, but I don't think this type of investment pool requires SEC filing...Section 2(b) of the Investment Company Act exempts certain governments, government agencies, and instrumentalities from the provisions of the Investment Company Act. Would this type of real estate investment under the EB-5 program qualify as an exchange of securities (common stock, mutual funds, bonds, etc.)?

Nativist...ah yes. It is either that, or someone whose first language wasn't English. Since it was written by someone connected to the Chinese Cultural Center wishing to lure foreign investors, my guess is that they are trying to say that immigration hardliners (a.k.a. nativists) differentiate types of immigrants (good, bad...legal, illegal). An attempt to ease the fears that foreign investors seeking citizenship may have since the state has received negative press regarding SB 1070, Arpaio, etc.

Last edited by phxSUNSfan; Jun 4, 2013 at 6:23 AM.
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  #35  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2013, 9:29 PM
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SO, the article below is from the local Casa Grande paper - unfortunately it is subscription based for the premium content so probably unreadable for most:

http://www.trivalleycentral.com/news...a4bcf887a.html

Most of it is the stuff already posted here - but the main quote from az AZ SOURCING person is "this project is going forward - it is 100% that PhoenixMart will be built".

The article also says they are shooting for construction to begin in November.
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  #36  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2013, 1:50 PM
KevininPhx KevininPhx is offline
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(no reason for a there to be there.)


I think Dubai has proved beyond a doubt that the way to create a great, thriving city is to take "no reason for there to be a there" and transform it by doing precisely what CG is hoping to do - giving people a reason to be there. You don't attract people to empty land. You build something first.
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  #37  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2013, 2:30 PM
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(no reason for a there to be there.)


I think Dubai has proved beyond a doubt that the way to create a great, thriving city is to take "no reason for there to be a there" and transform it by doing precisely what CG is hoping to do - giving people a reason to be there. You don't attract people to empty land. You build something first.
Dubia and Casa Grande...yes, they are so similar.
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  #38  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2013, 4:09 PM
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Originally Posted by KevininPhx View Post
(no reason for a there to be there.)


I think Dubai has proved beyond a doubt that the way to create a great, thriving city is to take "no reason for there to be a there" and transform it by doing precisely what CG is hoping to do - giving people a reason to be there. You don't attract people to empty land. You build something first.
Dubai is also a very very very very very wealthy Emirate (yes that is 5 verys). They are being very progressive and forward thinking, knowing that the wealth coming in from petroleum will not be permanent, and that their economy has to greatly diversify in order to maintain themselves as a thriving city and a significant player in the world market.

Dubai was already a there. It is an important port off the Straight of Hormuz, and has been an important trading post for ages. Not as important as it is now, but it always was a significant city-state in the Arabian peninsula. Now they have built a world class airport to assure themselves to become a major hub in transcontinental flights. They have built incredible infrastructure in order to become one of the next great economic world trade markets, and they have also invested greatly in bringing the top architects in the world to design museums, libraries, buildings, and everything also you can imagine to assure that once oil is gone, Dubai remains as a top tourist destination.

So no, Casa Grande is not Dubai. It doesn't have the money, it doesn't have the long term planning (one large project is not an overall long term shift), it doesn't have the leadership.This is just one project, and even if it does get built, it will not catapult Casa Grande to the world stage. Heck, probably not even to the American stage. The project's name is PhoenixMart, it is not trying to lift Casa Grande out of the dust, it is tying itself to a city that is an hour drive away.
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  #39  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2013, 4:28 PM
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Arq -

Although I don't disagree with the differences between Dubai and CG - the city IS trying to get an "inland port" designation and those talks have been ongoing for years.

And although it is pretty clearly a stretch to think that at least at some level the project name isnt tied to the city of it's name - the story being put out by the developers is that THIS "Phoenix" is more a reflection of the rising from the ashes Phoenix, and its significance in the Chinese culture, not the city nearby - again, even if true, Im sure it was a nice tie in that there was a fairly large city of the same name nearby.
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  #40  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2013, 4:45 PM
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Arq -

Although I don't disagree with the differences between Dubai and CG - the city IS trying to get an "inland port" designation and those talks have been ongoing for years.

And although it is pretty clearly a stretch to think that at least at some level the project name isnt tied to the city of it's name - the story being put out by the developers is that THIS "Phoenix" is more a reflection of the rising from the ashes Phoenix, and its significance in the Chinese culture, not the city nearby - again, even if true, Im sure it was a nice tie in that there was a fairly large city of the same name nearby.
The idea of an inland port is kinda pointless, unless Casa Grande really starts producing tons of goods, there really is no reasons for freight trains and trucks coming from actual ports to stop there and unload. Inland ports usually occur in places where different train lines meet, as well as multiple highways. CG only has one train line, and 2 interstate highways to connect to. There really is no reason for it to become a hub.

Beyond that, as it has been stated before, for all this manufacturing to move here, CG needs a much much larger high skilled work force. Without a major university, and only Central Community College as an education center, it will be hard to find the work-force in the area, and even harder to draw it away from major markets.

I'm not saying that your project won't happen (I can only assume that you are somehow connected to this, since your defense of it is quite strong, and you have only posted responses in this thread alone). I just don't buy the idea that this project will raise CG from obscurity. If built it will help the local economy a lot, and I do prefer this from the type of development that has been built there, but CG is not a place people desire to live in. Workforce retention is going to be tough, and some major issues have to be resolved for this to truly become what it is envisioning.
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