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  #61  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2015, 1:42 AM
Jjs5056 Jjs5056 is offline
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I agree. Downtown has the Public Market and DeSoto's expanding array of local, independent vendors that promote local farmers and business owners, AND contribute to the urban environment by activating an empty lot and historic warehouse, respectively. Will you pay a premium? Maybe. But, isn't that increased cost worth it in order to have these amenities that give Phoenix a sense of place and could grow into catalysts for tourism, etc.? I'd hate to see either of these die because a generic, low-cost provider opens up.

Downtown Phoenicians must still do 90% of their shopping from their car - the urban environment which includes specialty retailers like DeSoto is the draw, not convenient access to every amenity found in suburbia. I love shopping for furniture - do I think downtown will be defined by whether an Ashley Furniture warehouse is built and pushes independent/vintage/antique vendors in the central city? NO.

1) This is supposed to be the center of Phoenix mass transit - a place where buses, light rail, and future rail/streetcar/BRT all converge. Having a place for groceries near a light rail stop is great because residential tends to cluster nearby which is beneficial to LRT's health and to the residents of the area. But, nobody is going to be riding light rail from other parts in the city to shop at VB/Central in a store they can more easily access as close as 7th St/McDowell. Not to mention, the type of shopping we have been conditioned toward means multiple bags - in other words, the car and suburban location is going to win every time.

Space adjacent to such an important transit hub should have been focused on major attractions/anchor tenants that WILL draw people from elsewhere on the line (ex: a new Symphony Hall, shop-eat-relax concept like the Duce); fast-casual eating to provide travelers with convenient food options (high quality ones like Sauce or other Sam Fox/LGO casual brands would be great); shopping for items that can be easily purchased during a commute, or services that are quick and cater toward the commuter (Brooks Brothers, TUMI, ALDO, Barbershop, Deli, Dry Cleaner).

2) There are NO residential projects aside from their own within a comfortable enough distance to walk to a generic grocer for a small-medium amount of goods. Little development opportunity even exists nearby; the transit center exists here for a reason - it is the center of downtown commerce. ASU has yet to build many dorms and hasn't spurred private housing close to the Taylor Mall; and, these students are much more likely to use ASU stores/restaurants that take M&G/Sun Dollars.

3) Most importantly, this grocery store promise is a distraction from the fact that this project sucks. They are building a gated, hard-to-afford apartment tower that isolates itself as much as possible from downtown below, on what amounts to less than 1/3 of arguably the best development site in all of downtown. They are filling the other 3/4 with a parking garage. Even with the most activating used at ground level, using 3/4 of this site for an exposed parking structure is sick. Of course, the ground level WON'T contain active uses. Van Buren is dedicated entirely to garage ramps, a 9-5 office for transit workers will be included somewhere, and a generic grocery store will leave blank walls everywhere else except for where they place the entrance.

Nothing says progress like a FRY's or SAFEWAY underneath a giant garage on your city's DOWNTOWN TRANSIT CENTER - land that you had to give away and incentivize to begin with. Guests of the nearby hotels? The thousands of adjacent office workers and commuters? Why serve ANY of potential nearby consumers with something great when you can show them the loading dock of a BASHAS! At least our super urban oasis, Civic Space, will be blocked from this mess by the apartment tower - but, of course, the tower also blocks these park visitors of the sun entirely and of almost all of the skyline which was once a highlight of the space.
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  #62  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2015, 6:43 AM
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I'm pretty sure any grocer could modify their standard store design to fit an urban profile.

I have. It is a grocery store that specializes in natural foods. It is not the place to go for basic groceries. There are plenty of basic items that you cannot find at Sprouts because it does not carry them. If I want a bag of Doritos or a case of soda, Sprouts is not the place to go. Sprouts specializes in meat, produce, seafood, and natural foods.
Downtown Denver is just now getting its first grocery store. It will be a 35,000 square foot Kroger aka Fry's aka King Soopers in Denver's new Union Station neighborhood - no signage yet. It does have interior parking.

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Originally Posted by exit2lef View Post
I do, however, think it's too suburban for Downtown. Sprouts may be locally based, but its headquarters is located in exurban CityNorth. While Sprouts stores are generally smaller than mainstream groceries like Safeway, the company does not have an urban format store in the way that Walmart and Target do. I haven't heard of an urban Fry's format, but if that exists, it's probably a strong candidate.
I don't think the location of their HQ is important. For fun though I did Google Kroger's HQ and they are in a downtown Cincinnati high rise but then they are Cincinnati's (and Ohio's) biggest company with $108 billion in annual revenue significantly ahead of even Proctor and Gamble.

I had done some research into urban format Target stores and it turns out they are largely just a glorified Walgreen's with grab and go food etc. I don't think they've been that successful as it's not what people are wanting from Target. Target has also used a smaller full size store of about 65-75,000 sq. ft. (IIRC) that will take up a couple of floors in urban areas; I think they've been well received.
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  #63  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2015, 12:14 PM
exit2lef exit2lef is offline
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Target has also used a smaller full size store of about 65-75,000 sq. ft. (IIRC) that will take up a couple of floors in urban areas; I think they've been well received.
I've shopped at one of those in Downtown Minneapolis. It seemed to be a busy store with a good selection of merchandise.
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  #64  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2015, 9:03 PM
dtnphx dtnphx is offline
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duplicate

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  #65  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2015, 9:05 PM
dtnphx dtnphx is offline
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EXCLUSIVE: Grocery store could be coming to downtown Phoenix, ASU areaA long-coveted grocery store could be coming to downtown Phoenix.

Mike Sunnucks | Phoenix Business Journal

A grocery could be part of a new development project slated to be built at the Central Station transit hub at Van Buren Street and Central Avenue.

Chicago-based Smithfield Properties LLC wants to build a $72 million, 34-story apartment tower on a city-owned parcel that now houses the transit hub.

Smithfield principals have been telling real estate brokers and economic developers in private meetings that a grocery store may be inked for the ground-level retail component of the project, according to an official familiar with the situation.

A grocery store has long been desired for downtown Phoenix with more apartments and condos planned for the area and Arizona State University growing its downtown campus footprint to 11,500 students. There is speculation that Fry’s Food Stores Inc. could be the grocery looking at a downtown store.

Fry’s is owned by Cincinnati-based Kroger Co. (NYSE: KR) which has developed some adaptive reuse and urban setting stores in other markets.

Fry’s spokeswoman Jo Ellen Lynn said the rumors of a downtown Fry’s are just rumors.

“This is just a rumor,” she said.

Smithfield principals did not respond to requests for comment.

The city of Phoenix awarded Smithfield development rights, which include property tax breaks, last year.

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/n...-downtown.html

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  #66  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2015, 4:15 AM
poconoboy61 poconoboy61 is offline
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Originally Posted by Jjs5056 View Post
I agree. Downtown has the Public Market and DeSoto's expanding array of local, independent vendors that promote local farmers and business owners, AND contribute to the urban environment by activating an empty lot and historic warehouse, respectively. Will you pay a premium? Maybe. But, isn't that increased cost worth it in order to have these amenities that give Phoenix a sense of place and could grow into catalysts for tourism, etc.? I'd hate to see either of these die because a generic, low-cost provider opens up.

Downtown Phoenicians must still do 90% of their shopping from their car - the urban environment which includes specialty retailers like DeSoto is the draw, not convenient access to every amenity found in suburbia. I love shopping for furniture - do I think downtown will be defined by whether an Ashley Furniture warehouse is built and pushes independent/vintage/antique vendors in the central city? NO.

1) This is supposed to be the center of Phoenix mass transit - a place where buses, light rail, and future rail/streetcar/BRT all converge. Having a place for groceries near a light rail stop is great because residential tends to cluster nearby which is beneficial to LRT's health and to the residents of the area. But, nobody is going to be riding light rail from other parts in the city to shop at VB/Central in a store they can more easily access as close as 7th St/McDowell. Not to mention, the type of shopping we have been conditioned toward means multiple bags - in other words, the car and suburban location is going to win every time.

Space adjacent to such an important transit hub should have been focused on major attractions/anchor tenants that WILL draw people from elsewhere on the line (ex: a new Symphony Hall, shop-eat-relax concept like the Duce); fast-casual eating to provide travelers with convenient food options (high quality ones like Sauce or other Sam Fox/LGO casual brands would be great); shopping for items that can be easily purchased during a commute, or services that are quick and cater toward the commuter (Brooks Brothers, TUMI, ALDO, Barbershop, Deli, Dry Cleaner).

2) There are NO residential projects aside from their own within a comfortable enough distance to walk to a generic grocer for a small-medium amount of goods. Little development opportunity even exists nearby; the transit center exists here for a reason - it is the center of downtown commerce. ASU has yet to build many dorms and hasn't spurred private housing close to the Taylor Mall; and, these students are much more likely to use ASU stores/restaurants that take M&G/Sun Dollars.

3) Most importantly, this grocery store promise is a distraction from the fact that this project sucks. They are building a gated, hard-to-afford apartment tower that isolates itself as much as possible from downtown below, on what amounts to less than 1/3 of arguably the best development site in all of downtown. They are filling the other 3/4 with a parking garage. Even with the most activating used at ground level, using 3/4 of this site for an exposed parking structure is sick. Of course, the ground level WON'T contain active uses. Van Buren is dedicated entirely to garage ramps, a 9-5 office for transit workers will be included somewhere, and a generic grocery store will leave blank walls everywhere else except for where they place the entrance.

Nothing says progress like a FRY's or SAFEWAY underneath a giant garage on your city's DOWNTOWN TRANSIT CENTER - land that you had to give away and incentivize to begin with. Guests of the nearby hotels? The thousands of adjacent office workers and commuters? Why serve ANY of potential nearby consumers with something great when you can show them the loading dock of a BASHAS! At least our super urban oasis, Civic Space, will be blocked from this mess by the apartment tower - but, of course, the tower also blocks these park visitors of the sun entirely and of almost all of the skyline which was once a highlight of the space.
Let it go. This project is going to get built despite your griping. You seem to be obsessed with trashing anything that comes with this project because you don't like the renderings. You call for ground level retail nearly constantly, but dismiss this project that may potentially contain a ground floor grocery store. No project is going to be perfect. Until you are a developer or have some clout with the city, you probably won't be pleased with all aspects of other people's real estate developments.

As a former downtown resident, this grocery store is needed and would be heavily frequented. Believe it or not, there were times I didn't want to hop in my car to drive to the grocery store. I would hop on my bike and ride up to either the Safeway on McDowell or the one on Osborn. One of the only reasons I sometimes preferred to drive than to bike was the huge safety hazard that is I-10. There are a lot of people who live downtown who wish they could live a more car free lifestyle but can't due to the distance of basic amenities, like a grocery store. You would have residents walking, biking, and, yes, likely driving to this potential Fry's. You would have students picking items up that are probably grossly overpriced in ASU's convenience store. You would have hotel guests, daytime workers, and sports fans stopping by as well. This is exactly what downtown needs. A simple amenity that everyone can use.

DeSoto and Public Market do not hold a candle to a full service, chain grocery store. There are many, many, many, many items that these stores don't have that residents need. Why not trust that DeSoto and Public Market can still stay in business even with a full service supermarket? If they can't, oh well. Downtown residents shouldn't have to sacrifice convenience to appease those who think a Fry's will destroy an entire downtown's sense of place. A downtown grocer would neither ruin Phoenix's sense of place or detract tourists. With as many changes as downtown has gone through in the past 60 years, a grocery store is not going to be the negative tipping point.
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  #67  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2015, 1:50 PM
gymratmanaz gymratmanaz is offline
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Well said Poco.
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  #68  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2015, 4:40 PM
azsunsurfer azsunsurfer is offline
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Originally Posted by poconoboy61 View Post
Let it go. This project is going to get built despite your griping. You seem to be obsessed with trashing anything that comes with this project because you don't like the renderings. You call for ground level retail nearly constantly, but dismiss this project that may potentially contain a ground floor grocery store. No project is going to be perfect. Until you are a developer or have some clout with the city, you probably won't be pleased with all aspects of other people's real estate developments.

As a former downtown resident, this grocery store is needed and would be heavily frequented. Believe it or not, there were times I didn't want to hop in my car to drive to the grocery store. I would hop on my bike and ride up to either the Safeway on McDowell or the one on Osborn. One of the only reasons I sometimes preferred to drive than to bike was the huge safety hazard that is I-10. There are a lot of people who live downtown who wish they could live a more car free lifestyle but can't due to the distance of basic amenities, like a grocery store. You would have residents walking, biking, and, yes, likely driving to this potential Fry's. You would have students picking items up that are probably grossly overpriced in ASU's convenience store. You would have hotel guests, daytime workers, and sports fans stopping by as well. This is exactly what downtown needs. A simple amenity that everyone can use.

DeSoto and Public Market do not hold a candle to a full service, chain grocery store. There are many, many, many, many items that these stores don't have that residents need. Why not trust that DeSoto and Public Market can still stay in business even with a full service supermarket? If they can't, oh well. Downtown residents shouldn't have to sacrifice convenience to appease those who think a Fry's will destroy an entire downtown's sense of place. A downtown grocer would neither ruin Phoenix's sense of place or detract tourists. With as many changes as downtown has gone through in the past 60 years, a grocery store is not going to be the negative tipping point.
^This!
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  #69  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2015, 5:07 PM
PHXFlyer11 PHXFlyer11 is offline
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^This!
Agreed. There is A LOT to like about this project. It's a monumental step forward for downtown. Despite the fact that it includes retail and grocery, things that he has asked for in the past he still is unhappy. I think much of it stems from a rendering of the bid that wasn't chosen. My feel is that proposal was unrealistic and would've never happened or been planned in phases.

I still won't believe this though until it breaks ground. It almost seems too good to be true! But very reputable developer, so I'm very hopeful!!
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  #70  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2015, 5:56 PM
dtnphx dtnphx is offline
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Well said Poco.
Whatever the project, there is always Jjs5056's painful psedo-analysis and post-mortem on something not even built that describes scenarios and options that won't ever exist. Project after project...it's really discouraging. Sometimes the glass is half-full. For example, now that they're considering a grocery store, maybe the project has changed for the better than when it was first presented. Thinking about all the development of new housing just west of it from Van Buren to Roosevelt and from Seventh Avenue to 2nd Ave, is quite astounding. Not to mention the building it will be housed in itself, 44 Monroe AND Cityscape Residences. Then, add in students living in dorms several blocks away....it's no brainer. We have so hit a tipping point on so many issues downtown, it's kinda spectacular.
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  #71  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2015, 6:15 PM
gymratmanaz gymratmanaz is offline
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It truly is exciting to see so much happening. I can only imagine what is in the near future to be announced!!!
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  #72  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2015, 8:29 PM
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OZ1970 OZ1970 is offline
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Construction start date

Does anyone know when construction is supposed to start on Central Station? I read a few months back that they were shooting for a late summer (2015) start date - is that still the case?
One more question - is Central Station currently going through all the permitting stages? I have been able to find little information about the project when I do a Google search. Please pardon my ignorance but would anyone be willing to to post a link or links to any websites out there that gives updates/information on this project and other Phoenix projects? That is IF they even exist? I need all the help I can get - thank you very much ahead of time! Everyone have a great day and stay safe out there...
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  #73  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2015, 11:28 PM
Jjs5056 Jjs5056 is offline
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Agreed. There is A LOT to like about this project. It's a monumental step forward for downtown. Despite the fact that it includes retail and grocery, things that he has asked for in the past he still is unhappy. I think much of it stems from a rendering of the bid that wasn't chosen. My feel is that proposal was unrealistic and would've never happened or been planned in phases.

I still won't believe this though until it breaks ground. It almost seems too good to be true! But very reputable developer, so I'm very hopeful!!
No, I don't know enough about the losing bid to base my opinions of this project on its loss. And, yes, I complained about the lack of retail - but retail in the form of a box with 3 blank sides and one side with an entrance is not what I meant. I outlined the type of retail I think is appropriate for the site based on the site's primary use as a transit center. Like I said, an accessible grocery store is great - but, it being at a transit center doesn't really make sense when those arriving at this location are there for the purpose of commuting/transferring to other modes.

I'm sorry that my dramatics went overboard in my last post. There's of course nothing inherently wrong with a grocery store coming to downtown. But, my main point is:
1) that regardless of the potential benefit of a tenant, we should still value location and design
2) that regardless of downtown's surge - which I agree that it has reached a tipping point - downtown dwellers are still urban pioneers and sacrificing some of the conveniences of suburbia are part of that; paying a bit more for the local, small businesses that thrive in emerging downtowns when rents are still affordable and competition low is expected
3) that I don't know if Phoenix's "authentic" side has matured enough to the point that it can hold its own against national chains and yes, I am nervous a Fry's could shut down something like DeSoto that is still growing but can become a distinctly Phoenix attraction if successful

Even if you disagree, I don't know why it's impossible for most of you to see where I am coming from? Why is wanting good design and the great new small businesses to succeed a bad thing?

There are many projects going on that I think are fantastic: Proxy, Portland on the Park, ArtHAUS, the proposed Alliance complex on Roosevelt, the Foundry Hotel, Monroe HGI... why can't I voice my concerns over one project that is being built on city land in the most prime location in all of donwntown?

I truly am confused by comments like "this is too good to be true" in response to this project. This would be acceptable in the Camelback Corridor, but Urban Form was supposed to show that downtown demanded better. The apartment tower's only 'active' side - the entrance lobby - faces a dedicated private drive, which essentially functions the same as a gated complex. The tower has no interaction with its surrounding urban environment, and in fact, its orientation which shades an entire public park, shows that no thought whatsoever was given to this relationship. The rest of the site is dedicated to a monstrous garage - something I thought was pretty unanimously understood to be a source of many of downtown's worst blocks. Urban Form and the general expectation of 2015 design says parking should be wrapped, underground, or within a podium. A garage on our downtown transit hub, in the middle of major hotels, office towers, historic buildings, and ASU downtown, and adjacent to downtown's major public space, is a short-sighted use of the land that will continue to be the center of more transit lines, a growing campus, and additional office/hotel projects.

My asking for retail as at least one way to minimally improve the site was so that it would at least engage the Westin across Central and future ASU development across 1st Ave. A grocery store, which will present blank walls on every side but 1 doesn't accomplish this.

If there truly is a demand for a downtown grocery store, I think it would've been better situated further north, on the edge/just outside the core, closer to neighborhoods and where parking doesn't create design issues as it does in the core. The Circles Building, for example, would've been great for a Trader Joe's or Sprouts.

My last point is - what makes this project any different than the following, which are/were widely criticized?

1. AZ Center - provides an amenity in its AMC yet most agree it presents an awful street presence and its north face is terrible. Unlike Central Station, though, who has incredible surroundings, AZ Center was built at a time when the area surrounding it was dangerous and blighted.
2. 211 W Monroe - remember this proposal? People here were (rightfully) disgusted by the renderings which showed an office tower on Monroe with a giant parking garage behind it. Unlike Central Station, however, this project would have left room on the north side of the garage for future development, and the garages main faces were along 2nd and 3rd Avenues - much less important than Central and 1st Ave.

So, I'm sorry again for going over the top last time, but I still don't see anything positive about this project aside from the # of residents it will bring, and don't see why - at the very least - you can't at least understand where I am coming from in pointing out these flaws. I want a 400+ unit apartment tower and grocery store downtown, but I don't want them - as proposed - on this site. I think downtown is headed in a great direction, and I apologize if my posts give a different impression; but, it's the fact that there is so much growth and potential that makes me so critical when I see something like this proposed where we could've gotten something truly great.
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  #74  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2015, 11:30 PM
Jjs5056 Jjs5056 is offline
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Does anyone know when construction is supposed to start on Central Station? I read a few months back that they were shooting for a late summer (2015) start date - is that still the case?
One more question - is Central Station currently going through all the permitting stages? I have been able to find little information about the project when I do a Google search. Please pardon my ignorance but would anyone be willing to to post a link or links to any websites out there that gives updates/information on this project and other Phoenix projects? That is IF they even exist? I need all the help I can get - thank you very much ahead of time! Everyone have a great day and stay safe out there...
I believe construction was pushed back, but unfortunately, you are right in that details are very hard to come by. A vague rendering and site plan were released, but now seem to be outdated with some of the new bits and pieces posted. For example, it seemed as though the ground level of the garage had already been set aside for an incubator and the transit services office. I don't even see where a grocery store could fit?
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  #75  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2015, 3:22 PM
poconoboy61 poconoboy61 is offline
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Originally Posted by Jjs5056 View Post
No, I don't know enough about the losing bid to base my opinions of this project on its loss. And, yes, I complained about the lack of retail - but retail in the form of a box with 3 blank sides and one side with an entrance is not what I meant. I outlined the type of retail I think is appropriate for the site based on the site's primary use as a transit center. Like I said, an accessible grocery store is great - but, it being at a transit center doesn't really make sense when those arriving at this location are there for the purpose of commuting/transferring to other modes.

I'm sorry that my dramatics went overboard in my last post. There's of course nothing inherently wrong with a grocery store coming to downtown. But, my main point is:
1) that regardless of the potential benefit of a tenant, we should still value location and design
2) that regardless of downtown's surge - which I agree that it has reached a tipping point - downtown dwellers are still urban pioneers and sacrificing some of the conveniences of suburbia are part of that; paying a bit more for the local, small businesses that thrive in emerging downtowns when rents are still affordable and competition low is expected
3) that I don't know if Phoenix's "authentic" side has matured enough to the point that it can hold its own against national chains and yes, I am nervous a Fry's could shut down something like DeSoto that is still growing but can become a distinctly Phoenix attraction if successful

Even if you disagree, I don't know why it's impossible for most of you to see where I am coming from? Why is wanting good design and the great new small businesses to succeed a bad thing?

There are many projects going on that I think are fantastic: Proxy, Portland on the Park, ArtHAUS, the proposed Alliance complex on Roosevelt, the Foundry Hotel, Monroe HGI... why can't I voice my concerns over one project that is being built on city land in the most prime location in all of donwntown?

I truly am confused by comments like "this is too good to be true" in response to this project. This would be acceptable in the Camelback Corridor, but Urban Form was supposed to show that downtown demanded better. The apartment tower's only 'active' side - the entrance lobby - faces a dedicated private drive, which essentially functions the same as a gated complex. The tower has no interaction with its surrounding urban environment, and in fact, its orientation which shades an entire public park, shows that no thought whatsoever was given to this relationship. The rest of the site is dedicated to a monstrous garage - something I thought was pretty unanimously understood to be a source of many of downtown's worst blocks. Urban Form and the general expectation of 2015 design says parking should be wrapped, underground, or within a podium. A garage on our downtown transit hub, in the middle of major hotels, office towers, historic buildings, and ASU downtown, and adjacent to downtown's major public space, is a short-sighted use of the land that will continue to be the center of more transit lines, a growing campus, and additional office/hotel projects.

My asking for retail as at least one way to minimally improve the site was so that it would at least engage the Westin across Central and future ASU development across 1st Ave. A grocery store, which will present blank walls on every side but 1 doesn't accomplish this.

If there truly is a demand for a downtown grocery store, I think it would've been better situated further north, on the edge/just outside the core, closer to neighborhoods and where parking doesn't create design issues as it does in the core. The Circles Building, for example, would've been great for a Trader Joe's or Sprouts.

My last point is - what makes this project any different than the following, which are/were widely criticized?

1. AZ Center - provides an amenity in its AMC yet most agree it presents an awful street presence and its north face is terrible. Unlike Central Station, though, who has incredible surroundings, AZ Center was built at a time when the area surrounding it was dangerous and blighted.
2. 211 W Monroe - remember this proposal? People here were (rightfully) disgusted by the renderings which showed an office tower on Monroe with a giant parking garage behind it. Unlike Central Station, however, this project would have left room on the north side of the garage for future development, and the garages main faces were along 2nd and 3rd Avenues - much less important than Central and 1st Ave.

So, I'm sorry again for going over the top last time, but I still don't see anything positive about this project aside from the # of residents it will bring, and don't see why - at the very least - you can't at least understand where I am coming from in pointing out these flaws. I want a 400+ unit apartment tower and grocery store downtown, but I don't want them - as proposed - on this site. I think downtown is headed in a great direction, and I apologize if my posts give a different impression; but, it's the fact that there is so much growth and potential that makes me so critical when I see something like this proposed where we could've gotten something truly great.
Again, let it go. You're basically rehashing all of your original points as if your opinion is fact. We don't know if the renderings have been updated, yet you seem to already have such a horrible distaste for the original renderings that you're willing to go on some incredibly verbose diatribe at any mention of the project. If this project doesn't engage with the Westin, who cares? Why does every project have to "engage" with every project nearby and have a certain "street presence?"

When I lived downtown, I didn't view myself as a urban pioneer. I was just someone who was tired of living in the suburban monotony that covers 80 percent of the Valley. Why should I have been willing to sacrifice the convenience of something like a full sized grocery store for the health of a place like Phoenix Public Market? I got little, if any, use from the PPM, but I was often in need of a chain grocery store. A full sized grocery store is not a suburban trait. It should be something that everyone in the Valley has quick access to, whether you live in San Tan Valley, Surprise, Downtown Tempe, or Old Town Scottsdale.

This project could be exactly what downtown needs. Until you know exactly what this project will look like, I don't think it's worthwhile to put so much time and energy into long, drawn out, repetitive posts of what you don't like from the original rendering.
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  #76  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2015, 3:49 PM
PHXFlyer11 PHXFlyer11 is offline
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Originally Posted by Jjs5056 View Post
I believe construction was pushed back, but unfortunately, you are right in that details are very hard to come by. A vague rendering and site plan were released, but now seem to be outdated with some of the new bits and pieces posted. For example, it seemed as though the ground level of the garage had already been set aside for an incubator and the transit services office. I don't even see where a grocery store could fit?
I agree with you in that I think the renderings are very out of date now. I think the ground level will be much better than we anticipated based off the first rendering. I also wonder if the increased retail could push this baby higher, above Chase? I wouldn't be shocked if that was a surprise announcement. Isn't it very close as proposed?
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  #77  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2015, 3:59 PM
dtnphx dtnphx is offline
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Originally Posted by poconoboy61 View Post

This project could be exactly what downtown needs. Until you know exactly what this project will look like, I don't think it's worthwhile to put so much time and energy into long, drawn out, repetitive posts of what you don't like from the original rendering.
Here here! It's not just this post, this thread or this particular project. Jjs5056 posts in most all active Southwest threads (many posts per page) and beats his points with a hammer until there is nothing left to consider or even remember where the thought process started. Private pleas for him to get to a point in a less pedantic way have failed. Done.
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  #78  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2015, 4:19 PM
gymratmanaz gymratmanaz is offline
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Amen!!!
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  #79  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2015, 4:41 PM
phoenixwillrise phoenixwillrise is offline
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Central Station

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Originally Posted by dtnphx View Post
Here here! It's not just this post, this thread or this particular project. Jjs5056 posts in most all active Southwest threads (many posts per page) and beats his points with a hammer until there is nothing left to consider or even remember where the thought process started. Private pleas for him to get to a point in a less pedantic way have failed. Done.
Totally agree dtnphx. I get real tired of the naysayers and those who constantly rant about the ground floor of buildings "engaging" the city. Give it a freaking rest and get out to see great downtowns like Seattle and San Francisco and you will see not every stinking project has to have ground floor retail and "engage' the freaking city. The glass is half empty or half full I prefer to look at it has half full. Great things have been happening in downtown and the momentum is just beginning to build.
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  #80  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2015, 6:03 PM
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PHX31 PHX31 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PHXFlyer11 View Post
I agree with you in that I think the renderings are very out of date now. I think the ground level will be much better than we anticipated based off the first rendering. I also wonder if the increased retail could push this baby higher, above Chase? I wouldn't be shocked if that was a surprise announcement. Isn't it very close as proposed?
No way it goes above Chase, but if it went slightly higher it may eclipse 400' which would be a pretty big achievement.

I don't have a problem with the devil's advocacy of Jjs. His own utopian view of what a city should be like and how projects should be designed in a vacuum is a little unrealistic (to me everything about project development is driven by the almighty dollar) and some posts are very long (but easily skipped if you don't feel like reading), however I think he has great ideas and the city and developers should be held as accountable as possible.
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