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  #19521  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2018, 3:04 AM
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Originally Posted by flar View Post
I agree. Who decided that removing a statue should be a priority? There are any number of more pressing things to worry about. It's just as bad as the buck a beer thing in Ontario. Pure politics and distraction.
The mayor, apparently, although city council will have to agree.
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  #19522  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2018, 3:05 AM
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amateur erections
So many failed protests due to the lack of amateur erections. The world can learn something from Labrador here.
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  #19523  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2018, 12:27 PM
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The mayor, apparently, although city council will have to agree.
The Mayor of Victoria, Lisa Helps is in a heap of political trouble and from most accounts will not be re-elected. She is playing to her base, but the majority of those folks don't seem to be interested in voting.

When I lived in Victoria I actually voted for her, she just seemed more reasonable than the other candidates. I regret that decision now, especially after the bridge fiasco.
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  #19524  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2018, 1:47 PM
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An unintended consequence that the statue-banishers might not have thought of is that simply removing these statues may result in history being whitewashed even more. Even if there is lots of talk of keeping the statues in place with explanatory panels highlighting the "bad stuff", or moving them and installing these types of panels, AFAIK that's very rarely been done. Basically the statues just get removed or torn down by a mob and are thrown in the garbage.

Since teaching history is not our forté (this goes for both Canada and the U.S. BTW) removing the statues takes away another prompt that might lead future generations to learn more about history - good and bad.

So they might no longer wrongly view Cornwallis or Amherst et al. as admirable heroes, but they won't know about the bad things that happened in those days either.

In that type of intellectual vacuum, it's not a stretch for a lot of people to conclude that their country's always been great and pretty nice to everyone. (As no shortage of Canadians in particular already think their country was.)
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  #19525  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2018, 2:37 PM
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Not making any comments about this particular situation, but I'm not sure statues were ever a great tool for learning about actual history. I read historical non-fiction and listen to historical podcasts constantly, but honestly couldn't tell you who most of the statues in Queen's Park are of, and that's a place I walk through most days. The average person likely knows or cares even less.

I mean, I like statues, but these are things that go largely unseen aside from the general aesthetic until an issue arises. Just part of the urban landscape more than anything. The few times I've stopped to look at one of the plaques it's been scant on details if not outright historically inaccurate when I'm familiar with the subject matter. I'd go as far as to say that in most cases statues of historical figures are predominantly recognized by those who have negative connotations - and this doesn't just go for Canada and the US.

You could probably also make an argument that bringing these issues to light and actually having these figures appear in the news is also a prompt for learning more about history. AFAIK (and feel free to correct me), the "mob tearing down statue" thing has not happened in Canada, or at least not to any significant degree. The situation in the U.S. was much different, and of course in the dozens of other countries that have seen removal of statues of controversial figures dating back since we started putting them up. I've noted this before, but keeping statues up in perpetuity is probably more of an anomaly in a historic context, though that's not a bad thing.

FWIW the statue of Egerton Ryerson at Ryerson University received an additional plaque talking about truth and reconciliation and mentioning residential schools. Without any real detail, of course, but in that case it was the best solution IMO.
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  #19526  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2018, 3:18 PM
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Originally Posted by niwell View Post
Not making any comments about this particular situation, but I'm not sure statues were ever a great tool for learning about actual history. I read historical non-fiction and listen to historical podcasts constantly, but honestly couldn't tell you who most of the statues in Queen's Park are of, and that's a place I walk through most days. The average person likely knows or cares even less.

I mean, I like statues, but these are things that go largely unseen aside from the general aesthetic until an issue arises. Just part of the urban landscape more than anything. The few times I've stopped to look at one of the plaques it's been scant on details if not outright historically inaccurate when I'm familiar with the subject matter. I'd go as far as to say that in most cases statues of historical figures are predominantly recognized by those who have negative connotations - and this doesn't just go for Canada and the US.

You could probably also make an argument that bringing these issues to light and actually having these figures appear in the news is also a prompt for learning more about history. AFAIK (and feel free to correct me), the "mob tearing down statue" thing has not happened in Canada, or at least not to any significant degree. The situation in the U.S. was much different, and of course in the dozens of other countries that have seen removal of statues of controversial figures dating back since we started putting them up. I've noted this before, but keeping statues up in perpetuity is probably more of an anomaly in a historic context, though that's not a bad thing.

FWIW the statue of Egerton Ryerson at Ryerson University received an additional plaque talking about truth and reconciliation and mentioning residential schools. Without any real detail, of course, but in that case it was the best solution IMO.
You make some good points.

My rationale is that in a weak historical knowledge environment, the disappearance of historical figures (from statuary, school names, street names, building names, etc.) can lead to the generalized historical consciousness going from "very little" to "basically zero".

And that that's an even more fertile climate for historical amnesia.

I've had arguments with people over events in Canadian history that they've denied ever happened because if they had, "I'd have heard about it by now". Of course in the age of smartphones everyone has an encyclopedia at their fingertips and you can easily disprove the dummies - at least in theory. Sometimes they still won't believe you.

And of course let's not forget echo chambers where like-minded people simply spin their common views around and around in a circle.

Having more (not less) historical cues out there in the public realm is a good thing, not a bad thing. Even if it doesn't lead to a perfect end state.
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  #19527  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2018, 3:21 PM
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A big part of the context for removing the statues in the United States is due to those statues explicitly being put up to intimidate oppressed groups by dredging up oppressive symbols of the past.

In that context, it makes a lot of sense to tear down and relocate statues - although one could argue the history around their placement should not be forgotten.

In the Canadian context, that piece is missing, and this whole Canada "We Have Bad Statues Too" movement comes across a bit like Johnny come lately "look at us we are just like you guys in America!!!!" mentality.

Like many things in Canada, it just does just seem to be a bit of a hamfisted adaptation of current events in the US from a context that don't really make sense here.

We saw that in the recent Ontario election too, with PC supporters adopting slogans like "Make Ontario Great Again", and "Lock her up" [in reference to Wynne]. Huh?
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  #19528  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2018, 3:27 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
Of course, since the Maritimes constitute only 5% of the national population and are located in the ass end of the nation, we can go pound sand (as usual).........
You've had the balance of power in Ottawa for three years now, just not using it that well (it seems).
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  #19529  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2018, 3:29 PM
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Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
Like many things in Canada, it just does just seem to be a bit of a hamfisted adaptation of current events in the US from a context that don't really make sense here.
I also liked that post you quoted, but I do think Canada has a number of historical figures whose actions do merit some scrutiny.

On a broad level, I tend to be in favour of the installation of interpretive panels or plaques, as opposed to the simple removal of statues which is almost like pretending these people never existed and nothing ever happened.
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  #19530  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2018, 3:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Having more (not less) historical cues out there in the public realm is a good thing, not a bad thing. Even if it doesn't lead to a perfect end state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
On a broad level, I tend to be in favour of the installation of interpretive panels or plaques, as opposed to the simple removal of statues which is almost like pretending these people never existed and nothing ever happened.

Personally I tend to agree with both these sentiments. I think the situation in the US is considerably different than what we are experiencing here, although we certainly have our fair share of dark history that should come to light.

Calling for all statues of x figure to be removed can be harmful and counterproductive but so can the knee-jerk reaction that it's part of our history and untouchable. As with many issues it's not exactly black and white and I'd prefer there to be some discourse surrounding the issue. We're certainly not the only non-American country dealing with this either, with varying results (ignore the sources and slants just looked for some examples very quickly):

https://www.theguardian.com/australi...ered-australia

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...take-his-place

https://www.iol.co.za/news/politics/...place-13465261

https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/N...light-20161031
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  #19531  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2018, 5:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Hackslack View Post
One statue at a time, one lyric of our national anthem at a time, one name of pieces of infrastructure at a time, we shall succeed in erasing from our culture what our nation has been built upon!

https://vancouversun.com/news/local-...from-city-hall
We had the same thing last year: http://www.thetelegram.com/news/loca...g-relic-25739/

At least ours is easy. There's no real historical significance. It's just via the strong connection with Portugal that it matters at all. He's not a famous man.

But literally one of Canada's first prime ministers, or maybe the first? That's kind of strange. There are ways to acknowledge the past without demolishing things.

Just look at the Queen's two visits to Jamestown in Virgina, the 350th anniversary (Hurrah! We celebrate the anniversary of Britain taming the world!) and the 400th anniversary (This is a solemn commemoration) - the physical area didn't change at all, just the interpretation/educational materials/etc.
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  #19532  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2018, 5:26 PM
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We had the same thing last year: http://www.thetelegram.com/news/loca...g-relic-25739/

At least ours is easy. There's no real historical significance. It's just via the strong connection with Portugal that it matters at all. He's not a famous man.
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He's relatively famous, I'd say. I'd heard his name before reading that article and knew he was an explorer from that era.
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  #19533  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2018, 5:30 PM
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Yeah but you're you. lol

Truthfully, if it legitimately bothers the affected people, I'm fine with removing it completely. We can move the statue to a museum and make the same historical points that I want to make. I just find a lot of the times with these social issues, it's white people on both sides arguing, and the supposedly impacted people are indifferent. Take the recent controversy with that American girl wearing a Chinese dress to her prom (traditional). A couple of Asian Americans tweeted "My heritage is NOT your prom dress!" and white people made it a worldwide issue. Meanwhile, in China, it blew up - obviously we cannot say this represents majority opinion, but social media was flattered, supportive of the girl. Invitations to come to China and model it poured in, etc. That's the sort of situation where I see SJW stuff and just think... oh fuck off.

BUT if the actual people involved care, then I want to respect that.

The City of St. John's recently renamed the Discovery Day holiday (nearest Monday to July 24) to St. John's Day, much to the annoyance of Bonavista politicians (where Cabot actually landed, we believe).
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  #19534  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2018, 5:41 PM
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Yeah but you're you. lol

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Self-Awareness Moment No. 5456767.
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  #19535  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2018, 10:29 PM
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Our nation was built on residential schools, racism, and oppression too. Where are the statues for that?
I'm sure there will be lots soon enough.
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  #19536  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2018, 10:32 PM
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As much as some people would like to blame Trudeau for this latest statue flap, it's really a City of Victoria issue, and there is already a thread that deals specifically with this type of thing:

Trying to Erase John A. Macdonald from History
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  #19537  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2018, 11:34 PM
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https://torontosun.com/news/national...whelming-heirs

Trudeau makes Vanity Fair's list of Underwhelming Heirs

What do Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, tyrant Kim Jong-un, Saudi despot Mohammed bin Salman, and Trumpster fire Jared Kushner have in common?

All of these lesser lights made glossy bible Vanity Fair’s list of Underwhelming Heirs.

Of course, love him or hate him, J.T.’s dad, Pierre, was an intellectual powerhouse. Not necessarily an area where the son also rises.

Calling it a “deep dive on a shallow subject,” the mag puts the boots to the silly scions in its September issue, and even gives each a “Kardashian Spirit Animal.”
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  #19538  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2018, 12:26 AM
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This gave me uproarious laughter:


Quote:
'Canada is the world's worst oppressor of women': Saudi Arabia's bizarre propaganda campaign

A Saudi-owned TV channel claims that University of Toronto professor Jordan Peterson is a Canadian prisoner of conscience
...
Within hours of Saudi Arabia expelling Canada’s ambassador, the country’s broadcasters and pro-government social media accounts ramped into high gear digging up dirt on its newest enemy.
A recurring theme of Saudi attacks against Canada is “those in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones,” an expression that is roughly the same in both English and Arabic.

For this argument to hold up, though, it has placed Saudi propagandists in the uncomfortable position of having to prove that Canada is a pariah state of oppression, death and misery.

...
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada...against-canada
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  #19539  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2018, 12:31 AM
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Meantime, the Saudi despots have hurriedly reassured the world their little hissyfit doesn't effect their oil sales to Canada, perhaps belatedly realizing an IPO for Saudi Aramco wouldn't go so well if they looked like an unreliable supplier. Trudeau should have a spine and prohibit the import of Saudi oil.It can be replaced with US shipments.

Oh, and the enlightened MBS bombed a bus of schoolkids in Yemen today:
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/worl...dren-on-a-bus/
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  #19540  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2018, 12:34 AM
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of course the saudi's would defend jordan peterson, fucking ahistorical, unscientific goof.
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