HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada

Closed Thread

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #14181  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2018, 7:42 PM
Pavlov's Avatar
Pavlov Pavlov is online now
Khan
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Kingston, Ontario
Posts: 4,022
Quote:
Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
While I agree that "white privilege" is mostly nonsense, it does apply in one way: the black economic upper class still get stopped, harassed and arrested by white people and cops (and black cops, for that matter) in a way that white people never do. The myth of class not being an all-abiding concern in American society is actually true in this respect: racism is no respecter of persons.
Not sure how you can say that "white privilege" is "mostly nonsense" and then in the same sentence acknowledge that black people (and first nations, south asians, etc) are stopped, detained, harassed and arrested by the police (and security guards, and retail sales staff, etc.) in a way that white people never are [I'm filling in some of the blanks here but hopefully in a way that you do not disagree with]. That doesn't sound like "mostly nonsense" to me. That is some everyday shit.
__________________
Confucius says:
With coarse rice to eat, with water to drink, and my bended arm for a pillow - I have still joy in the midst of these things. Riches and honors acquired by unrighteousness are to me as a floating cloud.
     
     
  #14182  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2018, 8:06 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is offline
Monsieur Sainte-Nitouche
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vieux Canada
Posts: 34,212
Quote:
Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
Someone brought up the not so pleasant idea that catcalling tends to be done more by certain minority groups and that was immediately shot down as discrimination against minorities. .
I don't know why but this made think that this week on the national news I heard a Toronto mayoral candidate say that she was against a proposal to prevent repeat gun offenders from getting bail because it would be unfairly discriminatory to black and indigenous people... Or something like that...
__________________
Vous n'êtes pas écoeurés de mourir, bande de caves?
     
     
  #14183  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2018, 8:09 PM
niwell's Avatar
niwell niwell is online now
sick transit, gloria
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Brockton Village, Toronto
Posts: 8,027
Quote:
Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
The white patriarchy narrative has captured a lot of hearts and minds. There's some truth to it but the most common worldview based on that narrative is basically a simple logical error. Only a tiny number of people are elites, so the implication can only run one way. Even if 100% of elites were white males, most white males would not be elites. There's nothing privileged about the guy in West Virginia who dropped out in Grade 10 and works at Wal-Mart. Of course it's even murkier than this because plenty of women and minorities are elites too. Our friend Salman bin Abdulaziz Al Saud is not exactly an oppressed and powerless victim in this world.

Part of the problem is that, as people tend to do, the concept of white privilege / patriarchy is too often taken 100% literally. I can't remember the specific readings and journal articles, but when this was covered in some classes during my Master's over a decade ago it was not presented in such a narrative. Things are blurred and although power relationships can follow trends, it's never an absolute.

Looking at such things through an intersectional lens attempts to address some of the specific examples you've mentioned above: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality

It's certainly not without it's own pitfalls of course, primarily when used in a context that is far broader than originally intended or by the neoliberal elite classes to try and downplay economic disparities as a confluence of other issues. Or even to push the agenda that this is why the far left will inherently support Islamic extremism. While searching for the wiki link above I ran into this article which I thought was interesting and I agree with a lot of: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...eminism-jargon
__________________
Check out my pics of Johannesburg
     
     
  #14184  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2018, 8:17 PM
MonkeyRonin's Avatar
MonkeyRonin MonkeyRonin is offline
¥ ¥ ¥
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 6,240
White privilege is the concept that all else being equal, white people won't face the same racism-derived challenges that non-whites may face. It doesn't mean that white people are literally all "privileged". As much as it pertains to real experiences though, the fact that it needs to be explained so often definitely speaks to an obvious shortcoming in the terminology.

It also seems to me a bit of a backwards way of looking at things - it's not so much that whites are privileged in our society (can the majority population really be described in that way?) - as they're simply afforded the minimum level of rights & guarantees that are meant to apply to everyone. Rather, it's that non-whites are particularly disadvantaged to varying degrees, and are not receiving those minimums.
__________________
     
     
  #14185  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2018, 8:33 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is offline
Monsieur Sainte-Nitouche
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vieux Canada
Posts: 34,212
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
White privilege is the concept that all else being equal, white people won't face the same racism-derived challenges that non-whites may face. It doesn't mean that white people are literally all "privileged". As much as it pertains to real experiences though, the fact that it needs to be explained so often definitely speaks to an obvious shortcoming in the terminology.

It also seems to me a bit of a backwards way of looking at things - it's not so much that whites are privileged in our society (can the majority population really be described in that way?) - as they're simply afforded the minimum level of rights & guarantees that are meant to apply to everyone. Rather, it's that non-whites are particularly disadvantaged to varying degrees, and are not receiving those minimums.
At least, that's mostly the way things are these days in modern, reasonably advanced (albeit still imperfect) western societies. A couple of decades ago it was quite different and there truly was white privilege in accordance with the more literal meaning of the term.
__________________
Vous n'êtes pas écoeurés de mourir, bande de caves?
     
     
  #14186  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2018, 8:45 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is offline
Monsieur Sainte-Nitouche
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vieux Canada
Posts: 34,212
Still with white privilege and racism, I sometimes struggle to reconcile the public discourse and activism, and what I hear from a lot of minority people. Black people in particular.

For example, I have a friend of mine who's been living in Quebec for 25 years. Came here from Africa for university and stuck around. And will swear on the lives of his children that he's never experienced or suffered from racism of any kind. And he's not a black guy who's a wannabe white or anything. His wife is African too, and he listens to African music, eats African food, etc.

He's the furthest thing from a "Revello". https://www.walmart.ca/en/ip/popsicl.../6000159563265

(He's actually the one who taught me the term.)

BTW he doesn't reject or scoff at black or minority activism.

It just doesn't speak to him. He's too busy living his life.

On a broader level there are millions of African-Americans who actually think that in order to succeed all you need is to pull yourself up by the bootstraps, and that there aren't as many barriers as the activist crowd claims there are.

And some even think that if you behave properly with the police, that you aren't really more likely to get shot by them than white people are.

I am not saying I fully agree with them, but these views are out there. And these aren't just held by Uncle Tom wannabes.

There isn't unanimity these days like there used to be back in the days of the civil rights movement or in apartheid South Africa. And I don't believe that the reason is because these people have been brainwashed by the white establishment.

These people I am talking about don't get much press coverage, but they're out there. (Not suggesting they are anywhere near a majority, though.)
__________________
Vous n'êtes pas écoeurés de mourir, bande de caves?
     
     
  #14187  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2018, 12:38 AM
O-tacular's Avatar
O-tacular O-tacular is offline
Fake News
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Calgary
Posts: 15,732
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post

On a broader level there are millions of African-Americans who actually think that in order to succeed all you need is to pull yourself up by the bootstraps, and that there aren't as many barriers as the activist crowd claims there are.
I think it’s different for black people in Canada. There can be economic and social barriers that would differ depending where you grew up. The States has a much nastier history with slavery and there is much more racial tension there.
__________________
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire

https://clockzillakingoflaval.tumblr.com
     
     
  #14188  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2018, 12:56 AM
theman23's Avatar
theman23 theman23 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Ville de Québec
Posts: 2,171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Still with white privilege and racism, I sometimes struggle to reconcile the public discourse and activism, and what I hear from a lot of minority people. Black people in particular.

For example, I have a friend of mine who's been living in Quebec for 25 years. Came here from Africa for university and stuck around. And will swear on the lives of his children that he's never experienced or suffered from racism of any kind. And he's not a black guy who's a wannabe white or anything. His wife is African too, and he listens to African music, eats African food, etc.

He's the furthest thing from a "Revello". https://www.walmart.ca/en/ip/popsicl.../6000159563265

(He's actually the one who taught me the term.)

BTW he doesn't reject or scoff at black or minority activism.

It just doesn't speak to him. He's too busy living his life.

On a broader level there are millions of African-Americans who actually think that in order to succeed all you need is to pull yourself up by the bootstraps, and that there aren't as many barriers as the activist crowd claims there are.

And some even think that if you behave properly with the police, that you aren't really more likely to get shot by them than white people are.

I am not saying I fully agree with them, but these views are out there. And these aren't just held by Uncle Tom wannabes.

There isn't unanimity these days like there used to be back in the days of the civil rights movement or in apartheid South Africa. And I don't believe that the reason is because these people have been brainwashed by the white establishment.

These people I am talking about don't get much press coverage, but they're out there. (Not suggesting they are anywhere near a majority, though.)
I always knew you had a black friend.
     
     
  #14189  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2018, 1:01 AM
O-tacular's Avatar
O-tacular O-tacular is offline
Fake News
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Calgary
Posts: 15,732
Not sure if this is ugly per se, but it is scary:

https://globalnews.ca/news/4378650/o...e-her-newborn/
__________________
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire

https://clockzillakingoflaval.tumblr.com
     
     
  #14190  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2018, 1:24 AM
GlassCity's Avatar
GlassCity GlassCity is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Vancouver/[Winnipeg]
Posts: 4,892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I don't know why but this made think that this week on the national news I heard a Toronto mayoral candidate say that she was against a proposal to prevent repeat gun offenders from getting bail because it would be unfairly discriminatory to black and indigenous people... Or something like that...
This reminds me of a CNN headline I saw a couple years ago stating that a Republican proposal to prohibit past felons from voting was another example of their racism towards black people.
     
     
  #14191  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2018, 1:25 AM
GlassCity's Avatar
GlassCity GlassCity is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Vancouver/[Winnipeg]
Posts: 4,892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Still with white privilege and racism, I sometimes struggle to reconcile the public discourse and activism, and what I hear from a lot of minority people. Black people in particular.

For example, I have a friend of mine who's been living in Quebec for 25 years. Came here from Africa for university and stuck around. And will swear on the lives of his children that he's never experienced or suffered from racism of any kind. And he's not a black guy who's a wannabe white or anything. His wife is African too, and he listens to African music, eats African food, etc.

He's the furthest thing from a "Revello". https://www.walmart.ca/en/ip/popsicl.../6000159563265

(He's actually the one who taught me the term.)

BTW he doesn't reject or scoff at black or minority activism.

It just doesn't speak to him. He's too busy living his life.

On a broader level there are millions of African-Americans who actually think that in order to succeed all you need is to pull yourself up by the bootstraps, and that there aren't as many barriers as the activist crowd claims there are.

And some even think that if you behave properly with the police, that you aren't really more likely to get shot by them than white people are.

I am not saying I fully agree with them, but these views are out there. And these aren't just held by Uncle Tom wannabes.

There isn't unanimity these days like there used to be back in the days of the civil rights movement or in apartheid South Africa. And I don't believe that the reason is because these people have been brainwashed by the white establishment.

These people I am talking about don't get much press coverage, but they're out there. (Not suggesting they are anywhere near a majority, though.)
And this reminds me of something I read (maybe even on SSP!) where a white professor studied hispanic university graduates, asked if they faced discrimination in their journey to getting their degrees, they said no, he wrote that they didn't understand oppression.
     
     
  #14192  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2018, 1:27 AM
GlassCity's Avatar
GlassCity GlassCity is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Vancouver/[Winnipeg]
Posts: 4,892
As far as white privilege, I've voiced my thoughts on it before in that it definitely exists, but I think it's frustrating when white people, and men in particular, are grouped into a monolithic powerful block, when there are plenty of powerless people feeling rejected by society as well.
     
     
  #14193  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2018, 1:47 AM
Dr Awesomesauce's Avatar
Dr Awesomesauce Dr Awesomesauce is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: BEYOND THE OUTER RIM
Posts: 4,937
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Still with white privilege and racism, I sometimes struggle to reconcile the public discourse and activism, and what I hear from a lot of minority people. Black people in particular.

For example, I have a friend of mine who's been living in Quebec for 25 years. Came here from Africa for university and stuck around. And will swear on the lives of his children that he's never experienced or suffered from racism of any kind. And he's not a black guy who's a wannabe white or anything. His wife is African too, and he listens to African music, eats African food, etc.

He's the furthest thing from a "Revello". https://www.walmart.ca/en/ip/popsicl.../6000159563265

(He's actually the one who taught me the term.)

BTW he doesn't reject or scoff at black or minority activism.

It just doesn't speak to him. He's too busy living his life.

On a broader level there are millions of African-Americans who actually think that in order to succeed all you need is to pull yourself up by the bootstraps, and that there aren't as many barriers as the activist crowd claims there are.

And some even think that if you behave properly with the police, that you aren't really more likely to get shot by them than white people are.

I am not saying I fully agree with them, but these views are out there. And these aren't just held by Uncle Tom wannabes.

There isn't unanimity these days like there used to be back in the days of the civil rights movement or in apartheid South Africa. And I don't believe that the reason is because these people have been brainwashed by the white establishment.

These people I am talking about don't get much press coverage, but they're out there. (Not suggesting they are anywhere near a majority, though.)
You've raised some valid points about a segment of African Americans who will not accept the victimhood narrative. As individualists, they tend to be conservative and vote Republican. Shocking but true!

But you've also used language which I detest, and I don't get the sense you've used it ironically e.g. wannabe white and Uncle Tom.

This is language which is used in the African American community as a tool to bludgeon anyone who shows the slightest effort or initiative.

As always, we see illustrated in this language an increasingly polarised political system. If you're conservative and/or a Republican, you are a lesser human. You are bad, bad person. Full stop.
     
     
  #14194  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2018, 2:37 AM
Dr Awesomesauce's Avatar
Dr Awesomesauce Dr Awesomesauce is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: BEYOND THE OUTER RIM
Posts: 4,937
White privilege is racist drivel, pure and simple.

To attribute privilege or any quality to an ENTIRE race of people is racist by definition, is it not?

Any why race? Why is the radical Left so obsessed with race? And why are moderate Leftists just going along with it? It seems to me that racial differences or racial superiority is more of a far-right ideology. That doesn't make sense, does it?

Getting back to privilege, why draw boundaries along racial lines exactly? You can't sum up an entire race of people and attribute to them the same experience, can you? Are there not more relevant differences we could discuss (if, in fact, outlining differences between people is what we want to do, and, again, it's not clear to me why the Left would want to do this but okay...).

Try on some of these for privilege:
*Women are healthier and live longer than men on average.
*Women are capable of achieving multiple orgasms.
*Tall people vs short people.
*The collegiate athlete who gets a free ride because of their athletic prowess.
*Being born into a loving, caring family.
*Having two parents vs one.
*Having parents who demand their children achieve academically.
*Young people are healthier than older people.
*Older people have more money than young people.
*People who are more socially adept versus introverts.
*Bi-sexual versus heterosexual and on and on and on...

But no, it's always white privilege versus everyone else. Good luck with that, because far-right whites will grow weary of all this nonsense and strike back. I have no idea why anyone would be aiming for that unless their motivations are to unravel everything our culture has accomplished over the centuries.

If you believe that pushing this sort of ideology is a good idea, ask yourself what the end result might be, and then ask yourself whether it's worth it.

Or we can be like @Acajack's African friend: we can work hard; we can take on responsibility and take responsibility for our actions; we can have positive outlook on life; and, well, you just never know, things might just work out.
     
     
  #14195  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2018, 2:53 AM
Pavlov's Avatar
Pavlov Pavlov is online now
Khan
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Kingston, Ontario
Posts: 4,022
N/m
__________________
Confucius says:
With coarse rice to eat, with water to drink, and my bended arm for a pillow - I have still joy in the midst of these things. Riches and honors acquired by unrighteousness are to me as a floating cloud.
     
     
  #14196  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2018, 3:27 AM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is offline
Monsieur Sainte-Nitouche
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vieux Canada
Posts: 34,212
Quote:
Originally Posted by theman23 View Post
I always knew you had a black friend.
Get this. I have more than one.
__________________
Vous n'êtes pas écoeurés de mourir, bande de caves?
     
     
  #14197  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2018, 3:45 AM
O-tacular's Avatar
O-tacular O-tacular is offline
Fake News
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Calgary
Posts: 15,732
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlov View Post
N/m
Yeah it’s probably not worth it.
__________________
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire

https://clockzillakingoflaval.tumblr.com
     
     
  #14198  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2018, 3:56 AM
O-tacular's Avatar
O-tacular O-tacular is offline
Fake News
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Calgary
Posts: 15,732
Is there something in some people’s minds that gives the owner an electric shock any time they come close to acknowledging injustice that may be in their favour?

As someone who’s had some pretty shitty luck in their life I can still see that in spite of that I was also afforded some privileges that others were not.
__________________
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire

https://clockzillakingoflaval.tumblr.com

Last edited by O-tacular; Aug 11, 2018 at 4:54 AM.
     
     
  #14199  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2018, 6:19 AM
niwell's Avatar
niwell niwell is online now
sick transit, gloria
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Brockton Village, Toronto
Posts: 8,027
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlov View Post
N/m
I’m sure what you said was great, but yeah, not worth it. There was a good discussion before.
__________________
Check out my pics of Johannesburg
     
     
  #14200  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2018, 6:22 AM
rousseau's Avatar
rousseau rousseau is online now
Registered Drug User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Southern Ontario
Posts: 4,674
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlov View Post
Not sure how you can say that "white privilege" is "mostly nonsense"...
It's a ham-fisted ideology assigning group guilt to white North Americans and Europeans, and fancifully and reductively explaining away achievement as a simple product of skin colour. Its more fervent adherents hold nit-picking Inquisitions against speech and thought-crime, and push malevolently idiotic ideas and programs that essentially boil down to insisting that white individuals need to pay up for the sins of their fathers.

See "Defining White Lies" and "Defining Whiteness" at around the 19 minute mark of a talk at a "White Privilege Conference" at Ryerson by one Professor Walcott: https://www.ryerson.ca/wpc-global/.
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Closed Thread

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 5:04 PM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.