MIAMI | Development Thread

[NewAtlantisMiami]

Dale, I think that would a GREAT MOVE for Capital II since it is in the financial district anyway where there will be a need for more office space in the future! Seems only natural to me. What Dave had to say about Element, the opposite end of the skyline, was GREAT NEWS to me! The best news I've heard in a long time. Maybe we will finally see Ice2/Element rise up on that site to help make for one hell of a waterfront skyline. Call me Steve, btw. NewAtlantisMiami is what I had planned to call a future real estate company. With my love of skyscaper architecture, I thought I had finally found my calling as a real estate agent selling high-rise condos with this building boom, but I hated the financing aspects of it. Really don't like figures! Did you know that Capital I and II were originally planned at 805 feet? I think they got chopped down by the FAA. Steve

[Dale]

Steve it is! And yeah, depressing, the chop-job on Capital. Can you imagine how it would have stood out at 805' ?

[NewAtlantisMiami]

Originally Posted by Dale

Steve it is! And yeah, depressing, the chop-job on Capital. Can you imagine how it would have stood out at 805' ?

It was a HEINOUS CRIME AGAINST ARCHITECTURE to chop down Capital I & II. That design begs to be taller. I would have loved to have seen them over 1,000 feet, just as the Chrysler building they resemble (the world's first supertall circa 1930). It was a damn shame! Let us all spit on the FAA in unison! I was even more heartbroken with the Four Seasons when it was chopped down from its original 900+ feet. The way I've heard it is that if MIA would just update their radar technology and come into the 21st century, they wouldn't need such stringent height restrictions.

[arch photographer]

We need a very tall, (sorry about the supertall misquote) in Edgewater. ELEMENT would be awesome. Almost as incredible as Platinum on the Bay. They're coming, just not yet. I'll bet we also get Aja on the Bay and the shorter but very nice LYGHTE.

Nice penthouse!

[NewAtlantisMiami]

I think you are right about very tall buildings (500-600 feet) moving further north into Edgewater. I think it's just a matter of time. Downtown will eventually move as far north as where Element is supposed to go. The lot there is a beautiful site that just begs to be developed and it is away from the center of downtown off the beaten path in an area not as developed as Brickell, but still close enough to the center of things, I-195 going to the beach, I-95 going north, and SR112 going to the airport. It's just such a prime site, somebody will develope it into something eventually. I just hope it's over 500 feet tall. I've driven through the area several times and seen signs posted where property has been bought and cleared for future development. I've seen half blocks of buildings and houses vacated and fenced off with green mesh because they've been bought and the residents relocated because the property is to be cleared for future development. It's ghostly. There are developers who have bought property to sell to other developers if they don't development it themselves. Sadly, many of the people who are still there will eventually have to leave with the landlord having already sold the property for future development.

As I've said before, Miami will eventually have a relatively large downtown with Brickell the financial district on the south end and Edgewater the arts district on the north end, as they flank the central business district (the "old" downtown Miami). I think Edgewater will eventually be a 21st century Greenwich Village for Miami with futuristic-looking high-rise condos. Even though many of the very tall projects originally planned for the area have failed this time, I think some will eventually be replaced by other projects. It will just take a little more time. There is such unrealized potential in Edgewater. It's ashame the original developers of Element, Onyx2, and Platinum on the Bay couldn't get it together in time because they would have been still early in a part of town with so much still yet to be developed. It's just the type of thing that savvy property investors look for.

Unfortunately, I've always been too poor to take advantage, like when I moved to South Beach from California before it was South Beach in 1984. Having lived in L.A. and knowing what property values were near the ocean in Santa Monica and Venice, California, I knew something was wrong with that picture when I rented a one-bedroom apartment just 2 blocks from the ocean for just $275 a month. Lincoln Road Mall was a ghost town, Burdines on the beach was almost about to close down, and Ocean Drive was lined by elderly sitting out on their verandas staring out over the ocean.

Then Miami Vice changed everything. It projected a glamorous image around the world of South Beach and South Florida, and those who came to see it for themselves, not finding it, created it.

The red hot Beach development boom created such an outcry after the Blue and Green Diamonds topped out at 559 feet that the interest eventually moved across the bay. There were huge high-rise condos planned for Miami Beach, taller than the Blue and Green Diamonds, some over 600 feet tall, and I believe Thomas Kramer had one planned at 700 or 800 feet, Portofino II. Miami Beach would have looked like Sunny Isles Beach with even taller buildings, but an anti-development mayor was voted in and height restrictions imposed (400 feet). "No more Blue and Green Diamonds." If everything planned for Miami Beach had started construction before the Blue and Green Diamonds topped out, it would have had a completely different skyline.

Developers who wanted to build taller had to shift attention to Miami, which welcomed new development after years of stagnation. The "Save Miami Beach" anti-development movement caused a spark of the Beach building boom to drift across the bay, at just the right moment, as they tried to put out the fire. Then, 9/11, which I originally thought would spell the death of new American skyscraper construction, surprisingly and ironically led to the biggest skyscraper building boom in American history happening in Miami because the war on terrorism, and the war in Iraq and Afghanistan created a weak American dollar against a strong Euro, and newly planned high-rise condos in Miami became a bargain to foreign investors with many high-rise condos in the beginning being sold out well before construction began. In the beginning of the boom, many architects and developers could hardly plan buildings fast enough. So many tall high-rise projects were eventually planned, Emporis stopped listing them after over 60 being planned that were over 500 feet tall (of course, there are even more now). There are lots more projects planned that are over 500 feet tall that we've seen pictures of or discussed on this website that Emporis hasn't even listed because I think they eventually realilzed many of them won't be built (though they still show Ice2 and Platinum on the Bay as under construction, and this website even shows Onyx2 as built. Maybe these are premonitions.) There is even a 50+ story condo complex planned for as far north as 79th and Biscayne (Biscayne Plaza) not listed on Emporis. I think it's supposed be a cluster of tall mixed-use buildings with the cheap little shopping center that is there now being bulldosed. (Can't find the article on it now. Hell, put a supertall there and the FAA or MIA can't say a word, out of place though it may be.) There is a phenomenal number of tall projects planned, far more than I would have ever thought possible. Many won't be built as the market has cooled, while others will be built later by more powerful developers, with a broader vision, who have taken an interest in the project. I believe that is what has happened with Ice2/Element in its third incarnation, and we will eventually see a very tall building in Edgewater as far north as 31st street for an incredibly powerful spread of the Miami skyline.

Right now, only roughly a third of what was planned is actually under construction. All we can do now is sit and wait, but what is already under construction right now will definitely give us one of the top ten most dynamic skylines in the country, something I used to only dream about driving across the causeways from South Beach to Miami, having moved there after living under the skylines of L.A. and San Francisco.

Before I moved off South Beach in 1999, I rented an apartment with a bay view on the 15th floor of the south tower of what is now the Mirador. I used to stand on my balcony and imagine what Miami would look like from there with a skyline like that of L.A. or San Francisco. I thought it would never happen. Now the skyline of Miami will very well surpass the skylines of Los Angeles and San Francisco in just a few years looking impressive as all hell spread out along Biscayne Bay farther north than I had ever imagined. From my latest count, we are already in 3rd place ahead of Houston with a preponderance of buildings under construction in the 400-500 foot range (I tend to forget to count those, but the World Almanac does except for New YorK) as well as those 500 feet plus. I think that that many high-rises under construction at the same time has never happened before in this country. I don't think either Chicago or New York ever had as many all under construction at the same time. Only Hong Kong has had more under construction at once after the Chinese took it over and Chinese construction workers gladly provided cheap labor for the good of the new China, so Hong Kong could move out New York with the sheer number of tall buildings, precisely why such a feat could not be surpassed here in Miami. We've already had slavery, even though I think Bush would gladly bring it back.

Anyway, skyscraper construction in Miami most certainly will not automatically stop with what is currently under construction or with the "boom" ending. There are still those who can get virtually whatever they want built regardless of what the market is doing, and maybe even a supertall. I think the city even subsizes certain projects under the table to encourage them where they are planned for sites felt to help revitalize downtown Miami. Unbelievably, they are talking deficit in spite of the "boom". Just like Miami-Dade said they didn't have the money to expand Metrorail. With the property taxes from this "boom," Miami-Dade County could bankroll a mission to Mars. So they had to change that tune. Let's give it a good 5 years to see what the skyline looks like. I have little doubt that we will see New York, Chicago, and then Miami with the 3 most dynamic skylines in the country. Having been a skyscraper enthusiast/aficionado for all of my adult life, I find this to be a great time to be alive and living in Miami. What is happening should be balanced at a rate to match accompanying infrastructure improvements (more roads, highways, vastly improved mass transit, etc) and more affordable housing for service providers to these high-rise structures, but I'm not the one who's approving all this. I'll just enjoy watching it all go up!

[MiamiSpartan]

Although they have not advertised in the Herald for some time, it is still good to see Capital advertising in the local fashion mags, like Ocean Dr, etc...

[MiamiJR]

Miami OK's bayfront high-riseMiami commissioners approved plans for a 63-story tower at the foot of the Venetian Causeway. The vote on the parcel was the last one involving 10 acres of Miami Herald property for sale.
BY MATTHEW HAGGMAN
mhaggman@MiamiHerald.com
Miami city commissioners approved plans for a high-rise condominium and hotel at the foot of the Venetian Causeway, ending months of sometimes heated debate over putting a 63-story tower on the small bayfront property.

Complaints by nearby residents ranged from the building being out of scale with its surroundings to a plea that decisions for big new developments be delayed until next year when commissioners take up Miami 21, the city's much-anticipated new planning and development blueprint.

But Thursday afternoon commissioners voted 4-1 in favor of the project, saying that high-rise development is appropriate for an area that already has tall buildings -- though none as tall as the 649-foot building being proposed. The developers, led by Pedro Martin of Terra Group in Miami, also promised to set the tower back from the water and build a bay-walk permanently open to the public.

REGALADO DISSENTS

Commissioner Tomás Regalado was the lone dissenting vote.

The developers, meanwhile, also withdrew a previous proposal to close Northeast 14th Street to vehicular traffic between North Bayshore Drive and Herald Plaza.

The vote was taken against the political backdrop of Commissioner Linda Haskins facing a runoff election for her District 2 seat against Mark Sarnoff, a Coconut Grove activist who wants to limit high-rise development.

Haskins expressed sympathy for the project's opponents, but said ``I think the developers have done everything they can.''

Sarnoff said he is glad Northeast 14th Street will stay open and there will be public access to the waterfront but objected to the proposed building's height.

$190 MILLION LAND DEAL

The move is the final vote by city leaders on what is proposed to go on the 10 acres located next to the Carnival Center for the Performing Arts and The Miami Herald's headquarters. Commissioners previously approved plans for a large retail center and two high-rise condo towers on separate portions of the land.

The Miami Herald's parent, McClatchy Co., is selling the 10 acres to the Martin-led development group for $190 million.

Martin has subsequently agreed to sell much of the land, though not the parcel by the causeway, to Indianapolis developer Mark Siffin.

When construction will start remains unclear. Last month the Sacramento, Calif.-based McClatchy said it expected to complete the sale by the middle of next year.

[NewAtlantisMiami]

I sure hope we can get the Omni Development too (number 7). Take a look back at Dave8721's posting on page 9. That's another project that includes 6 buildings ranging from 584 feet to 644 feet tall that this website or Emporis has yet to list along with Biscayne Plaza, though they both now list One Bayfront Plaza. Perhaps it IS more reality than fantasy! Steve[/B]

[The Mad Hatter]

The people who update emporis, are the same people who are on this board so they basically know what we know, which is that we have nothing more than a rendering and a small article on the website of the supposed developer....this thing isn't a done deal yet.

[NewAtlantisMiami]

Originally Posted by The Mad Hatter

The people who update emporis, are the same people who are on this board so they basically know what we know, which is that we have nothing more than a rendering and a small article on the website of the supposed developer....this thing isn't a done deal yet.

I figured as much Mad Hatter! Just wishful thinking on my part, but Tibor Hollo has the influence and the backing to pull it off. I've noticed the 2 websites do have different information though, as if they don't talk to each other. Go figure! Anyway, I"m sure they have contacts and informants that we don't, Eddie, even though I know for a fact that Ice2, Platinum on the Bay, and Infinity II are not actually under construction as the website says, while I know Paramount Bay at Edgewater Square is under construction, not yet noted by Emporis. I was just there Friday night! They know things that we don't, and we know things that they don't because living here, all we have to do is drive by the construction site to see what's really going on there. Touring the construction sites has actually become a weekend hobby for me.

By the way, I've saved the thread where they talk about the 3rd best skyline in the U.S. I loved the way you pitched one for the home team toward the end there as if to say, "Hey, now! Wait a minute here!" That was before the new construction had actually begun. There are some great shots of different U.S. skylines on that thread, and BHK25 put on some really great ones of Miami, which is why I put the thread in my favorites to begin with. We don't have as many tall buildings on the high end under construction as they have built in some other American cities, but what is under construction in the 400-500 foot range does put us in 3rd place behind New York and Chicago already (even without a supertall) with lots more new construction to come, with the increased demand for office space, and with many projects probably reconfiguring to mixed use instead of failing altogether. I was very surprised when I did that count this morning. It sort of sneaked up on us from behind. We've got a lock on 3rd place now. Even though Houston is number 3 right now in sheer numbers, I pick San Francisco for having the 3rd best skyline after New York and Chicago because of that dramatic approach crossing the San Francisco Bay Bridge coming from Oakland just as New York's bridges add to its skyline, and the Transamerica Pyramid and the towers of the suspension bridges compliment each other very nicely. Crossing the Rickenbacker Causeway from Key Biscayne gives me a similar feeling ascending to the apex of the span, and it's only going to get better. The Miami skyline will eventually spread from the Rickenbacker Causeway to the Julia Tuttle with 3 dramatic approaches, 1 from Key Biscayne and 2 from Miami Beach. Oh! Let's not forget the approach from 836 coming out of the toll booth! Imagine what that's going to look like! I moved to South Beach in 1984 from L.A. (I'm a native originally from Jacksonville, though.) It wasn't even called South Beach then! It became South Beach after Miami Vice popularized it as such! (I did several episodes of Miami Vice as an extra.) I watched it become South Beach right before my very eyes before I even knew it. People would talk about South Beach, and I'd go: "South Beach? Where is that? Never heard of it!" Then, they'd go: "South Beach is where you live, you idiot!" "Oh! Duh!" Interesting tidbit: Florida now has 6 different noteworthy skylines, and 3 are in Miami-Dade County alone (Miami, Miami Beach, and Sunny Isles Beach with the second most dynamic skyline in the state). No other state has anything like that. Ohio has Cleveland, Cincinnati, Columbus, and Toledo, but then Texas and California only have 3, Houston, Dallas, and San Antonio (Ooops - forgot about Fort Worth, TX for 4), and L.A., San Francisco, and San Diego respectively.

ALSO, ALL YOU FUTURE DEVELOPERS AND CITY PLANNERS OUT THERE, PLEASE READ SUNDAY'S MIAMI HERALD FRONT PAGE!!! "THE DARK SIDE OF THE BOOM!! Tibor Hollo is on page 20 of Condo Living "He'll start building Villa Magna when he has one third of the units sold. Currently, a little over 20 percent are sold. He expects to get the permits before the end of the year. 'We have painstakingly examined what is there. We have found very interesting economic developments,' he said, noting more than two dozen projects that never got off the ground because of rising construction costs and a changing market. Thousands of people got deposits back. 'Unfortunately for medium-priced condominiums and lower priced condominiums, the developers just cannot pair up the pricing with their cost,' He said. However, the high-end market is very strong." And Capital is advertising on page 15 of Condo Living. I think the fact that Tibor Hollo will be able to start construction on Villa Magna, with only one third of the units sold, only attests to how powerful a developer he really is. He is 79 and can't afford to take his own sweet time anymore. I have no doubt his friends and family (2 sons) want to see him go out with a bang, so we could see both Villa Magna and One Bayfront Plaza sooner than you think. Steve

[NewAtlantisMiami]

Well, the 2007 World Almanac is out, and it's all screwed up! I don't know who their informants are, but they would have done better and would have been far more accurate if they had just copied Emporis, as inaccurate as they are. I would have thought they would have been more careful considering that list has to stand for a whole year without changing. They show Element, Onxy2, and Soleil as being under construction when some of these sites have weeds growing over them. 900 Biscayne, which was on last year's list as being under construction, is not on this year's list, when we know for a fact that it is under construction, along with the Marquis (679) and Mint (631) as well as Icon Brickell (586). I was hoping Met 2 & 3 would make the cut before the publication went to press with Met3 at the top of the list, but the list is so grossly inaccurate overall, I think I'll write them. Maybe they will end up consulting us!

[Patrick]

One Maimi and the Dupont Plaza completly ruined the skyline. They block the prestegious office towers of the CBD from the South. Luckily they are still in full view from the North. I prefer Miami's late 90's skyline. The New One is way to crowded

Although those Empire Towers look GREAT!

[NewAtlantisMiami]

It's only going to get worse Patrick, but hopefully we'll get some good architecture in-between all this. The city approved virtually anything any developer wanted to build. We are more likely to see One Bayfront Plaza than Empire World though. I mailed a letter to the World Almanac today about how screwed up their Miami list is, but it should be really incredible next year. It is already longer than any other city's list of tall buildings except for New York and Chicago, and will be a lot longer next year and hopefully more accurate. It's a full centimeter longer than Houston's list. I'll let you know when I hear from them and what they say. I might end up being a local consultant for them. That would certainly make for a more accurate list of tall buildings in Miami. New York and Chicago are way ahead of any other American city as far as tall buildings are concerned, and we could be WAY ahead of the rest of the country in 3rd in the next decade, even with so many projects failing, because so much was planned and so much attention is focused on Miami right now. As Condo Living said, the high-end market is very strong, and we are seeing an increased demand for high-rise office space. There is still more yet to be built

[arch photographer]

The building is going to continue, just at a much more sane pace. The frenzy has died and the dip/blip whatever is here, but many of the 'cancelled' buildings will eventually come back online and be built. Not all.

[NewAtlantisMiami]

I agree with you Arch, and I believe we will see Element as well as other very tall Edgewater skyscrapers eventually. There is still a great deal of interest in developing the area, just at a more civilized pace, as you said. It will be interesting to watch over the next few years. I think a lot of projects will just be taken over by more powerful developers. I like the very tall, mixed-use building concept where a skyscraper becomes a city within a city, which is what Quantum and Infinity II are supposed to be, and it looks as though Capital II is going that route as welll. I think Lynx should do that, already being in the heart of downtown Miami, if there is any chance we will see it. Lynx even looks like a city within a city from the renderings I've seen. The condo boom naturally created a demand for more office space in its wake because of many of the buyers considering putting a regional or international headquarters here for their corporations. To me, this is like watching a sporting event that's going to on for several years. By the way, in today's Miami Herald, Villa Magna said they are breaking ground in the spring, and a couple of months ago, one of the Infinity II sales reps told me they were breaking ground in March of next year.

[dave8721]

Add to that an article I saw the other day (and now can't find) on the price of building materials now being on the way down, which would in turn make it cheaper to build (which would of course lead to more building which of course lead to the prices going back up....etc).

[NewAtlantisMiami]

November 16, 2007

World Almanac Books
A Division of World Almanac Education Group, Inc.
A WRC Media Company
512 Seventh Avenue
New York, New York 10018

Re: 2007 World Almanac / Tall Buildings Page 734

Dear Sir/Madam:

I have consulted the World Almanac for over 30 years now, and eagerly awaited the 2007 edition more than any other because of the unprecedented growth occurring within the city in which I live, Miami, Florida, but after running out to purchase the 2007 edition as soon as it became available, I found the Miami list of Tall Buildings to be grossly inaccurate, though much longer than last year's as anticipated. Element (545 feet), Onyx2 (543 feet), and Soleil (514 feet) are not under construction as you have indicated. They fell victim to rising construction costs due to increased demand, and the property and plans are up for sale. The Marquis (679 feet), Mint (631 feet), and Icon Brickell (3 buildings - 586 feet, 586 feet, and 465 feet) are all under construction and have been long before the 2007 World Almanac went to press, so I was expecting to see them. Even worse, 900 Biscayne (712 feet) is on the 2006 list, but was omitted from the 2007 list. I don't think they stopped mid-construction. I don't know whom your contacts or informants are, but you would have been more accurate if you had simply copied the list of buildings under construction and already built from any one of the skyscraper websites such as Emporis.com or Skyscraperpage.com, though they have a few inaccuracies themselves. I had more faith in you because what you print has to stand for a whole year before you can change it, so you have to strive to be accurate.

Other construction projects that are scheduled to start soon, that I hope to see on a more accurate 2008 list, are Met3 (828 feet) and Met2 (617 feet), Infinity II (736 feet), Capital I (649 feet), and Villa Magna I & II (574 feet and 574 feet). I've gotten word that another developer has taken an interest in Element, and it may well be under construction some time next year. The same could happen with the other abandoned projects (Platinum on the Bay at 590 feet as well as Onyx2 or Soleil). You never know if a more powerful developer with a broader vision might take an interest, but at the present time, they are not under construction. I hope this all makes for a more accurate Miami list next year. Since I know where all these construction sites are, I'm willing to help if you need it. All I have to do is go look at a construction site.

Sincerely,


Steve XXXXXXXXXX
Skyscraper enthusiast and aficionado

[Miami Jim]

Hey Steve, would it be difficult for you to type the list as it shows in the World Almanac? That would be nice to see and it would help us to see why you are upset (plus i'm just to lazy to go to the story and buy the damn thing... ;-) ) Thanks!

[NewAtlantisMiami]

Originally Posted by Miami Jim

Hey Steve, would it be difficult for you to type the list as it shows in the World Almanac? That would be nice to see and it would help us to see why you are upset (plus i'm just to lazy to go to the story and buy the damn thing... ;-) ) Thanks!

I tried, Jim, but things just don't line up the way they're supposed to on here. Can't get the columns straight, so I can't reproduce the list. The list in the 400-500 feet range is pretty accurate and impressive except for Paramount Bay at Edgewater Square (496 feet tall) being left off, giving the Miami list overall some pretty respectable length, in spite of the inaccuracies, longer than any other city's list except New York and Chicago. You just wait until they add these that they left off in addition to what will be starting construction next year. And who knows? Maybe we will see one of the very tall Edgewater towers get off the ground eventually. Steve

[bobdreamz]

^ I used to help Emporis in updating their list but the editor for Miami lived in Brooklyn and no longer comes to SSP.