Is Canadian identity getting stronger or weaker among the younger generation?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Another thing that is really striking is how quickly new immigrants at least outwardly or symbolically pick up this Canadian identity.

I often see that naturalized citizens or residents who've only been in Canada 5, 10, or 15 years already seem kind of proud to be Canadian (eg. flying the Canadian flag, even if alongside their old country's flag), celebrate Canada Day, have barbecues, have their kids play hockey etc.. It seems like in the US, people have to wait a little longer before the immigrant first generation or two gets as much into the whole Fourth of July, apple pie and baseball thing (usually it's the first generation who's American born that picks up the American identity, not the individuals who immigrated as adults).

If this is indeed true, it might be related to the theory some have that Canada's identity is low-pressure and user-friendly. So the (relative/perceived) absence of coercion actually makes people more likely to integrate and assimilate - not less.

I am not sure I am fully on board for that, but it's definitely a large school of thought in Canada.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Interesting post, but on this point: is that really the case?

I was in five Canadian provinces this year (but none of them in the West - though I've been all over the West several times) and I never go the impression that people were wearing the American flag to any significant degree.

If anything, I thought this was considered very tacky in Canada (with the possible exception of Quebec).

Wearing stuff with "Canada" or the maple leaf on it is very common in my observation, though somewhat less so in Quebec. But you still do see it regularly in La Belle Province too these days.

Yeah maybe you're right, I'm just rehashing my own experiences over the years. I was thinking of girls from my high school when I was typing that, but was much more vague. You're right that it's not as common as I kind of made it sound though. I do still think though that if you walk into a Forever 21 in any Canadian mall they'll have clothes with the US flag on it.

As far as the maple leaf though, I'll stand by what I said in that it's super tacky. I personally don't think I've ever seen it outside of Canada Day, and if someone gifted me one I wouldn't dare go outside in it. I would put it in the "dad clothes" category along with softball tournament and tacky tourist t-shirts.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Acajack

If this is indeed true, it might be related to the theory some have that Canada's identity is low-pressure and user-friendly. So the (relative/perceived) absence of coercion actually makes people more likely to integrate and assimilate - not less.

I am not sure I am fully on board for that, but it's definitely a large school of thought in Canada.

I'll say that given that I was 5 when I immigrated, I've obviously fully committed to Canadian culture, though I suppose I didn't have much of a choice. My parents, however, remain rather disconnected. All their friends here are Russian-speaking and we certainly aren't having casserole or pasta for dinner. And we're from an unimportant country immigration-wise. I imagine those from countries with higher populations of immigrants here are even less "classically Canadian" in this sense. So I don't know how much this blank-slate actually encourages assimilation. I'll counter with an anecdote that I played rugby against a team in San Francisco once whose players were probably 80% Pacific Islanders. Yet their parents in the stands broke out into more than one USA chant.

Also, just to quickly touch on a point you made in another post, how artists like Bieber and Drake are really just global artists with a maple leaf stamp: yes, that's true. But Drake naming Weston Road and Mississauga in his songs does so much more for Canadian spirit than it might seem, regardless of how American he may now be. Working from my assumption of Canada's inferiority complex, I think it helps to see Canadian places being mentioned in the same global field as LA and New York.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Yeah maybe you're right, I'm just rehashing my own experiences over the years. I was thinking of girls from my high school when I was typing that, but was much more vague. You're right that it's not as common as I kind of made it sound though. I do still think though that if you walk into a Forever 21 in any Canadian mall they'll have clothes with the US flag on it.

As far as the maple leaf though, I'll stand by what I said in that it's super tacky. I personally don't think I've ever seen it outside of Canada Day, and if someone gifted me one I wouldn't dare go outside in it. I would put it in the "dad clothes" category along with softball tournament and tacky tourist t-shirts.

I find Canada shows up almost by osmosis on a lot of gear, from caps and windbreakers to mitts. People who wear this stuff aren't necessarily always doing so out of an eagerness to show the flag. (Even if that might be a goal of some actors in corporate Canada.) I have a couple of those foldable festival/campfire chairs that I bought at Walmart or Canadian Tire. And they have Canadian flags on them...

[Capsicum]

https://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/89-652...015005-eng.htm

This is an interesting read about surveying Canadian identity and pride.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Acajack

If this is indeed true, it might be related to the theory some have that Canada's identity is low-pressure and user-friendly. So the (relative/perceived) absence of coercion actually makes people more likely to integrate and assimilate - not less.

I am not sure I am fully on board for that, but it's definitely a large school of thought in Canada.

From the source in my last post, on immigrant pride in Canada.

"Along with the higher levels of pride among immigrants, children of immigrants were more likely to express pride in being Canadian and in Canadian achievements. More specifically, 66% of second generation immigrants (i.e., children of immigrants) were very proud to be Canadian. This was significantly higher than pride among other non-immigrant Canadians (third generation or more) (59%), and slightly higher than the proportion of first generation immigrants (63%)."

I think it's hard to get countries where immigrants and non-immigrants are fairly equal in "pride in one's country", even if superficial.
Though it was pointed out in another thread I made somewhere, it could be that non-immigrants include Quebecois and aboriginals who obviously have conflicting views on pride in Canada, it's still fairly surprising that old stock and new Canadians don't differ much in pride in the nation.

[SignalHillHiker]

My father gave me a golf ball he found with my initials and a Canadian flag I joked it was nice to meet him.

No real change in the presence of Canadian symbolism here. It's always been strong. Every other house has a personal display of flags. Depending on the region of the province, some combination of the Canada, Union, Ireland, Newfoundland and Labrador (provincial), Newfoundland (tricolor), or Labrador flag is dominant. Clothing items with any of those things, and also the Newfoundland tartan, have also always been common. We've always had a strong visual presence of national and political views in that way. As a general rule, tends to be stronger in rural areas and tends to transition from tricolour to Canada flag heading west across the island, and change immediately to Labrador flag once there.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I find Canada shows up almost by osmosis on a lot of gear, from caps and windbreakers to mitts. People who wear this stuff aren't necessarily always doing so out of an eagerness to show the flag. (Even if that might be a goal of some actors in corporate Canada.) I have a couple of those foldable festival/campfire chairs that I bought at Walmart or Canadian Tire. And they have Canadian flags on them...

I was thinking more towards there being no stylish equivalent to this in Canada:


https://www.pinterest.ca/pin/401031541791327680/

Of course everyone has items with the leaf on them but I think the above doesn't really exist here. Again, not to say that I want it to.

[Capsicum]

One major difference is Canadian symbols on clothing and items are smaller and less flashy in terms of the area covered (eg. like those mittens, or a small Canadian flag sewn on a backpack) and unlike the US equivalent don't often have just the entire flag laid out entirely but have components of it here and there (eg. just the maple leaf or the red and white colors on something).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I was thinking more towards there being no stylish equivalent to this in Canada:


https://www.pinterest.ca/pin/401031541791327680/

Of course everyone has items with the leaf on them but I think the above doesn't really exist here. Again, not to say that I want it to.

The classic Canadian equivalent would be something like this:

[harls]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I find Canada shows up almost by osmosis on a lot of gear, from caps and windbreakers to mitts. People who wear this stuff aren't necessarily always doing so out of an eagerness to show the flag. (Even if that might be a goal of some actors in corporate Canada.) I have a couple of those foldable festival/campfire chairs that I bought at Walmart or Canadian Tire. And they have Canadian flags on them...

My Abitibi-born wife bought the 2006 mitts and hoodie from the Bay... I always wondered if it was because her husband was from Manitoba. And it wasn't.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Also, just to quickly touch on a point you made in another post, how artists like Bieber and Drake are really just global artists with a maple leaf stamp: yes, that's true. But Drake naming Weston Road and Mississauga in his songs does so much more for Canadian spirit than it might seem, regardless of how American he may now be. Working from my assumption of Canada's inferiority complex, I think it helps to see Canadian places being mentioned in the same global field as LA and New York.

I've taken note of that. It contrasts with what we've usually seen in the past.

Though I haven't decided whether it represents:

- Canada and its biggest city Toronto taking their place on the global stage

or

- Toronto obtaining recognition as "part of the club" of major (North) American cities

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The classic Canadian equivalent would be something like this:

Perhaps. Either way, I don't want the clothes thing to distract from my larger point. It was pretty clearly my most poorly thought-out argument haha, and I think that's because it simply isn't that important compared to entertainment and politics.

I could've also talked about symbolism, as I did not too long ago. Canada doesn't have a Statue of Liberty or a Mount Rushmore, and even if it does, it doesn't promote them as well. Part of the reason why I think it's harder for Canadians to maintain (or develop) a distinct identity is that it's difficult to tie it to anything tangible. Canada and the US are both immigrant states, but the US had its founding based on the principle of "freedom." Canada doesn't have anything like that. Just a second UK that stopped being a UK, but that ended up with a whole range of different cultures. I suppose it's not hard to see how they'd be unable to come up with much past hockey and multiculturalism.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I've taken note of that. It contrasts with what we've usually seen in the past.

Though I haven't decided whether it represents:

- Canada and its biggest city Toronto taking their place on the global stage

or

- Toronto obtaining recognition as "part of the club" of major (North) American cities

I feel it's more the latter. Toronto seems to consider itself a peer among American cities, more than global cities.

If it were the former, Toronto would compare itself to cities like London, Paris, Sydney etc. but you don't see that.

It's comparisons to Chicago, NYC, LA, San Francisco etc.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Perhaps. Either way, I don't want the clothes thing to distract from my larger point. It was pretty clearly my most poorly thought-out argument haha, and I think that's because it simply isn't that important compared to entertainment and politics.

I could've also talked about symbolism, as I did not too long ago. Canada doesn't have a Statue of Liberty or a Mount Rushmore, and even if it does, it doesn't promote them as well. Part of the reason why I think it's harder for Canadians to maintain (or develop) a distinct identity is that it's difficult to tie it to anything tangible. Canada and the US are both immigrant states, but the US had its founding based on the principle of "freedom." Canada doesn't have anything like that. Just a second UK that stopped being a UK, but that ended up with a whole range of different cultures. I suppose it's not hard to see how they'd be unable to come up with much past hockey and multiculturalism.

Among Canadian symbols,

It's either hockey or... something abstract (eg. "multiculturalism", "peacefulness", "politeness" etc.)

If it's concrete and not abstract, it's usually something found in nature like flora or fauna (eg. maple trees, animals like beavers, moose, bears) and landscapes or wilderness.

Interestingly it's rarely a distinct historical figure, or distinct buildings or cities or historical events bandied around as part of Canadian identity (only on a regional scale, so that for example the Plains of Abraham is less on the radar of a Vancouverite).

Most countries are more likely to venerate particular figures and sites, and individual items that (eg. the Liberty Bell, the Bastille, the Magna Carta) Canada doesn't really have the counterpart to.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I've taken note of that. It contrasts with what we've usually seen in the past.

Though I haven't decided whether it represents:

- Canada and its biggest city Toronto taking their place on the global stage

or

- Toronto obtaining recognition as "part of the club" of major (North) American cities

I often think about this as well, and it's probably a bit of both. Drake definitely is Toronto-focused rather than Canada-focused, but Toronto will never fully be detached from its Canadianness, whether in Canada or the US. So while for now it is probably just a matter of Toronto becoming a cool North American city along with LA, New York and Chicago, it by extension pulls up the rest of Canada with it.

I won't lie, I get goosebumps sometimes hearing Drake talk about neighbourhoods I've never been to, because I still get excited about (some part of) Canada being in that conversation.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Among Canadian symbols,

It's either hockey or... something abstract (eg. "multiculturalism", "peacefulness", "politeness" etc.)

If it's concrete and not abstract, it's usually something found in nature like flora or fauna (eg. maple trees, animals like beavers, moose, bears) and landscapes or wilderness.

Interestingly it's rarely a distinct historical figure, or distinct buildings or cities or historical events bandied around as part of Canadian identity (only on a regional scale, so that for example the Plains of Abraham is less on the radar of a Vancouverite).

Most countries are more likely to venerate particular figures and sites, and individual items that (eg. the Liberty Bell, the Bastille, the Magna Carta) Canada doesn't really have the counterpart to.

It's probably a factor in making Canadian identity more user-friendly to a newcomer or immigrant in that having ancestors who lived among the historical sites and places is not seen as being as important for being Canadian as for many other countries.

For example, it doesn't really matter if your ancestors lived at the time of specific events that defined or shook the nation, like the American Revolution or Civil War, or the Storming of the Bastille, etc., if one's national identity is based on beavers and moose, or maple syrup or hockey, or multiculturalism. After all, anyone can visit a national park and see moose or play hockey today right after stepping off the plane. With these things, you could argue "old stock" and "new Canadians are no more or less connected to going to a park to see a moose or going down to the rink to play hockey. While, for something like say the battlefields of the American Civil War, it means much more to "old stock" Americans than new Americans..

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Among Canadian symbols,

It's either hockey or... something abstract (eg. "multiculturalism", "peacefulness", "politeness" etc.)

If it's concrete and not abstract, it's usually something found in nature like flora or fauna (eg. maple trees, animals like beavers, moose, bears) and landscapes or wilderness.

Interestingly it's rarely a distinct historical figure, or distinct buildings or cities or historical events bandied around as part of Canadian identity (only on a regional scale, so that for example the Plains of Abraham is less on the radar of a Vancouverite).

Most countries are more likely to venerate particular figures and sites, and individual items that (eg. the Liberty Bell, the Bastille, the Magna Carta) Canada doesn't really have the counterpart to.

There's no chance that a country with Canada's history of dual-nationalities and expansion doesn't have historical people and symbols to commemorate. The fact is that we just decided not to discuss them for whatever reason.

However, that did just remind me of something. The Hudson's Bay Company is undoubtedly an important force in the creation of Canada and is definitely becoming more relevant. The red/blue/yellow/green stripe thing is very trendy. We need more such examples to latch onto. Politeness and beavers don't cut it when it comes to establishing human cultural identities.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

There's no chance that a country with Canada's history of dual-nationalities and expansion doesn't have historical people and symbols to commemorate. The fact is that we just decided not to discuss them for whatever reason.

Of course there are historical people and symbols, it's just not discussed cross-country in a way that it is in other countries.

States far removed from the American Revolution geographically or that didn't become part of the US until much later still commemorate it and its role in binding together the entire country, in a way that Newfoundland and BC don't for events that bind together the entire country.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I could've also talked about symbolism, as I did not too long ago. Canada doesn't have a Statue of Liberty or a Mount Rushmore, and even if it does, it doesn't promote them as well. Part of the reason why I think it's harder for Canadians to maintain (or develop) a distinct identity is that it's difficult to tie it to anything tangible. Canada and the US are both immigrant states, but the US had its founding based on the principle of "freedom." Canada doesn't have anything like that. Just a second UK that stopped being a UK, but that ended up with a whole range of different cultures. I suppose it's not hard to see how they'd be unable to come up with much past hockey and multiculturalism.

In my experience Canadians are uniquely touchy about symbolism and other stuff not representing them. I've even witnessed Canadians recoil at the idea that *hockey* is iconically Canadian because they themselves aren't hockey fans.

It's just so weird.

Just google "France" and "images" and see what comes up. About half the images have the Eiffel Tower in them. Do you think that people in Marseille bitch that the Eiffel Tower isn't an adequate image for France because it's not in their city and doesn't "represent" them?