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  #621  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2018, 2:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
His description doesn't describe Ontario very well at all. German was never the largest ethnic element in the province, nor has government historically been seen as an "unwanted intrusion."
I was wondering what would have spurred him to perceive Ontario as being very German -- German Americans among the Loyalists who settled Ontario? Mennonites around Waterloo? Later European immigrants?

None of these groups come close to matching the numbers of British-descent Loyalist Ontarians or British settlement straight from the Isles themselves.
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  #622  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2018, 2:12 AM
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Another thing is that despite Ontario being perceived as equivalent or close to the US Midwest (or Great Lakes Region), Canadian accents there do not appear to have been influenced by nearby American accents (eg. the Northern Cities Vowel Shift). Torontonians do not sound like Buffalonians at all.

Though you can argue that Canadians in one region share more with Americans in the same region (eg. Seattle and Vancouver, Windsor and Detroit etc.) the trend based on accent and dialect appears to be that English-speaking Canadian accents going west of Quebec and the Maritimes are pretty consistent for the most part (of course there are some differences, like say Ottawa valley twang etc.). But Torontonians sound like Vancouverites, not Buffalonians.
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  #623  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2018, 2:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
Another thing is that despite Ontario being perceived as equivalent or close to the US Midwest (or Great Lakes Region), Canadian accents there do not appear to have been influenced by nearby American accents (eg. the Northern Cities Vowel Shift). Torontonians do not sound like Buffalonians at all.

Though you can argue that Canadians in one region share more with Americans in the same region (eg. Seattle and Vancouver, Windsor and Detroit etc.) the trend based on accent and dialect appears to be that English-speaking Canadian accents going west of Quebec and the Maritimes are pretty consistent for the most part (of course there are some differences, like say Ottawa valley twang etc.). But Torontonians sound like Vancouverites, not Buffalonians.
There's a little bit of the nasal upstate NY tone in Toronto, Hamilton, St. Catherines, and environs. It's not as pronounced, but I can hear it. Maybe not recognizeable to a Canadian... but it's there alright.
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  #624  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2018, 2:50 AM
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Aaaaarrggghh, not that map again!

I dream that the forum software will get updated someday so that every time anyone ever tries to post that map again, it permanently deletes their account and maybe even erases their hard drive.

NYC not in Yankeeland??
Ottawa and Texas Panhandle together??
Quebec and Louisiana??
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  #625  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2018, 4:58 AM
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Aaaaarrggghh, not that map again!

I dream that the forum software will get updated someday so that every time anyone ever tries to post that map again, it permanently deletes their account and maybe even erases their hard drive.

NYC not in Yankeeland??
Ottawa and Texas Panhandle together??
Quebec and Louisiana??
South Jersey... always thought it reminded me of northern North Dakota.
Now I know why; they’re part of the same region of course.
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  #626  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2018, 5:06 AM
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Originally Posted by creamcityleo79 View Post
There was a time when they were settled by the same people.
Right, there was a time when Détroit, Saint-Louis, la Nouvelle-Orléans, Montréal, Québec, Trois-Rivières, and Gaspé "were all settled by the same people".

Similarly, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Santa Fe, El Paso, San Antonio, parts of Florida, and Mexico, all of Central America, most of the Caribbean, Colombia, Venezuela, Peru, Bolivia, Equador, Chile, Argentina, etc. "were all settled by the same people".

Frankly, it's nonsense to believe that this ancient common origin could be still a major factor in the character of these places a few centuries later.
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  #627  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2018, 1:47 PM
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There's a little bit of the nasal upstate NY tone in Toronto, Hamilton, St. Catherines, and environs. It's not as pronounced, but I can hear it. Maybe not recognizeable to a Canadian... but it's there alright.
Maybe a bit in those areas, but it’s definately more prominent in extreme Southwestern Ontario, especially around Windsor and Chatham! Even then, we sound much more like other Canadians than we do our American friends just across the border!
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  #628  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2018, 2:11 PM
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Well, if it's any consolation, they produce juices, jellies, and (not) fine wines from this crap in NW PA and SW NY.

Unless you prefer sweet wine.

The soils are perfect for grapes, but the climate is way too cold and wet in the winter and spring to make fine wines.
That’s surprising! They must be where the Niagara Region wineries were 25 years ago. Now there are over 100 wineries that produce some very good, dry wines, especially white, but reds as well.
Back in the 80s, they were pretty awful and sweet!
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  #629  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2018, 2:43 PM
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That’s surprising! They must be where the Niagara Region wineries were 25 years ago. Now there are over 100 wineries that produce some very good, dry wines, especially white, but reds as well.
Back in the 80s, they were pretty awful and sweet!
Not surprising at all. Grapes that grow naturally in a region that is generally wet and experiences cold winters and springs are going to produce sweet wines. They've been making wine on Lake Erie's southern shore and into the Finger Lakes for just as long, if not longer, than they have been in the Niagara region... the climate is actually more favorable for grape harvests due to being on the southern shore of the lakes.

I'm not talking about hybrids or blends. I'm talking about native varieties... meaning Concord, Niagara, Catawba, etc.... whatever other types result in that sweet, musty wine.

I'm not a wine snob by any means, but Great Lakes region wines are undrinkable crap. I'm not talking about wines produced in the region that add 15-25% grapes from California or elsewhere to actually make their wines palatable... but those are still pretty bad.
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  #630  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2018, 3:46 PM
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I like how the map has "El Norte" is in - el sur. South Florida just disappears, not even worth recognizing.
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  #631  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2018, 3:48 PM
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I like how the map has "El Norte" is in - el sur. South Florida just disappears, not even worth recognizing.
It’s El Norte from the perspective of Mexico, of course.
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  #632  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2018, 3:52 PM
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It’s El Norte from the perspective of Mexico, of course.
Yeah I get it, just strange considering the map is focused on the U.S. yet uses some term that might make sense from a Mexican perspective.

And it seems to over simplify Canada.

South Dakota: Yankeedom to The Far West.
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  #633  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2018, 4:11 PM
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The last thing I'm going to say about it is this: read the book (seems like I'm the only one who has). The connections are not obvious and the people in the same regions may not even feel like they're connected to each other at all. But, the author goes into great detail about each area and how the cultures of those areas have developed. As I said initially, it does not singularly describe each of the regions and, of course, there are other regional delineations that also make sense. Anyway, I just thought it was interesting food for thought and, IMO, there is some validity to the regions/nations he describes in the book and on the map.
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  #634  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2018, 4:46 PM
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^ His argument for Ontario being part of the American Midlands just isn't convincing. Basically his argument is because Upper Canada was multi-ethnic and received some settlers from Pennsylvania, it's part of the same cultural region of Pennsylvania and the Midwest heartland.
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  #635  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2018, 6:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
^ His argument for Ontario being part of the American Midlands just isn't convincing. Basically his argument is because Upper Canada was multi-ethnic and received some settlers from Pennsylvania, it's part of the same cultural region of Pennsylvania and the Midwest heartland.
Aside from where Quebec borders NY-VT-NH-ME, southern Ontario feels the most different from its American neighbours than any other Canadian "borderland".

And in the case of Quebec's Eastern Townships, had they remained mainly anglo and not become primarily francophone over the past century, they'd be way more similar to their U.S. neighbours than southern Ontario is.

Though the Eastern Townships are also arguably closer in "look" to their U.S. neighbours.

Ironically, much of southern Ontario does have quite a few similarities and commonalities with places in the U.S., but these American areas tend to be further afield and not immediately on the border. (I am thinking of the GTA and the Mid-Atlantic region, for example.)
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  #636  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2018, 6:52 PM
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Originally Posted by creamcityleo79 View Post
The last thing I'm going to say about it is this: read the book (seems like I'm the only one who has). The connections are not obvious and the people in the same regions may not even feel like they're connected to each other at all. But, the author goes into great detail about each area and how the cultures of those areas have developed. As I said initially, it does not singularly describe each of the regions and, of course, there are other regional delineations that also make sense. Anyway, I just thought it was interesting food for thought and, IMO, there is some validity to the regions/nations he describes in the book and on the map.
These things have a real "best before" date, though. A mere one decade is enough to change a city. Isn't that book like half a century old or almost already?

Sure, everyone acknowledges that at some point in history, people (administrators, military, colonists...) were seamlessly shuffled between Quebec City and New Orleans within the same administrative and political entity and without much cultural shock (weather, mostly; New France didn't have one single climate).

Things that were similar at some point may very well be very different now, and vice versa.
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  #637  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2018, 6:52 PM
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Aside from where Quebec borders NY-VT-NH-ME, southern Ontario feels the most different from its American neighbours than any other Canadian "borderland".
So I don't know what constitutes "Southern Ontario", but the areas of Ontario close to Detroit are culturally quite similar. Everything from Windsor or Sarnia to about London has a semi-similar vibe, IMO. Once past London you get more in the Toronto orbit.
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  #638  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2018, 6:53 PM
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And in the case of Quebec's Eastern Townships, had they remained mainly anglo and not become primarily francophone over the past century, they'd be way more similar to their U.S. neighbours than southern Ontario is.
That's not even that much of an "if". There are select areas (Stanstead for example) that are culturally and linguistically pretty similar to Northern Vermont.

(However I suppose someone will point out that if we're going to be cherry-picking, then Windsor or Sarnia can be said to also pretty similar to Michigan.)
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  #639  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2018, 6:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
So I don't know what constitutes "Southern Ontario", but the areas of Ontario close to Detroit are culturally quite similar. Everything from Windsor or Sarnia to about London has a semi-similar vibe, IMO. Once past London you get more in the Toronto orbit.
Funny that I just wrote my above post before this one of yours showed up.
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  #640  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2018, 7:11 PM
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