How to Know the Benefit of a Transportation Project

[Wpg transit 163-1]

Originally Posted by njaohnt

I don't think Calgary's RT is really that successful. Yes you need to build it up over time, but is now the time? How much worse will Pembina get? Once Pembina takes an extra twenty minutes, of course we can build stage two. But do you think I am going to pay $84 000 today to $8 000 per year, when it take quite a bit longer, and I can go where ever I want? Never. Once RT is faster than driving, then make it. Think of what we could do with the money! Saving twenty minutes won't happen for a while, so lets wait for that. In the mean while, add transit priority, and off-board fare-collection, and we'll save people a lot of time and money.

You think with the problem of not paying there bus fare with the system we got now we should change to off board fare system rapid transit as in it's own right of way that's just for buses is needed what you don't understand or don't want to understand is winnipeg waiting to long for rapid transit and you think we should wait till it takes longer to drive then take the bus to build rapid transit the first stage has helped in many ways when Osborne is closed if we keep waiting the price will only skyrocket there's a reason the slogan on the rapid transit buses should say your city in slow motion cause that's what's going on with the whole project if we keep waiting we waited long enough let's finish this phase so we can start planing the future stages of rapid transit

[njaohnt]

Originally Posted by Wpg transit 163-1

You think with the problem of not paying there bus fare with the system we got now we should change to off board fare system rapid transit as in it's own right of way that's just for buses is needed what you don't understand or don't want to understand is winnipeg waiting to long for rapid transit and you think we should wait till it takes longer to drive then take the bus to build rapid transit the first stage has helped in many ways when Osborne is closed if we keep waiting the price will only skyrocket there's a reason the slogan on the rapid transit buses should say your city in slow motion cause that's what's going on with the whole project if we keep waiting we waited long enough let's finish this phase so we can start planing the future stages of rapid transit

Your post is very hard to understand due to a lack of punctuation.

You can't measure transportation success by ridership, or the amount of RT. There is nothing wrong with waiting. I did not say that we have to wait until RT will be faster than going by car, but when that happens, it's a good idea to add RT.

[Arts]

Originally Posted by njaohnt

It would take a lot less money to add a few overpasses than to spend it on rapid transit.

simply "building an overpass" does nothing to actually address transit issues, and if "successful" only serves to promote private vehicle usage over public transportation.

The other thing I am curious about in the price calculation of this BRT is how much of that cost is to acquire land? An overpass, depending on size and purpose may cost as little as $60M if built on a public R.O.W. and could potentially cost $250M if you want to build an expansive one that bypasses many streets underneath it, and most of that cost is purely construction.

What is the value of the asset you are buying? In the case of BRT its the land which the corridor is to be built on, and that cost will only increase in the future (if it doesn't, then completing the BRT corridor will be the least of Winnipeg's worries). Spending that on overpasses returns an asset that needs constant upkeep and maintenance, and once retired is worth less than nothing.

edit: I found a cached version of the final alignment study for phase 2, I'm not sure which concept plan is being implemented, but the original estimation of land costs was between $8M and $40M, so I suppose it's much less than I suspected.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=ca

[njaohnt]

Originally Posted by Arts

simply "building an overpass" does nothing to actually address transit issues, and if "successful" only serves to promote private vehicle usage over public transportation.

Building an overpass will speed up transit, and cars. If Pembina were free-flowing, and off-board fare collection was added, it would be faster than BRT, which currently has no off-board fare collection, and will go way out of the way to stay out of the railway. If we can make Pembina free-flowing for less than $590 000 000, I think it would be a better idea. If it would be kept at six lanes, it could have a bus lane, so that the bus will be at BRT speeds, no matter what happens to traffic. I don't believe in, "force feeding," people transit. We could even raise the gas tax to pay for the overpasses so that people will ride transit more.

The other thing I am curious about in the price calculation of this BRT is how much of that cost is to acquire land? An overpass, depending on size and purpose may cost as little as $60M if built on a public R.O.W. and could potentially cost $250M if you want to build an expansive one that bypasses many streets underneath it, and most of that cost is purely construction.

What is the value of the asset you are buying? In the case of BRT its the land which the corridor is to be built on, and that cost will only increase in the future (if it doesn't, then completing the BRT corridor will be the least of Winnipeg's worries). Spending that on overpasses returns an asset that needs constant upkeep and maintenance, and once retired is worth less than nothing.

edit: I found a cached version of the final alignment study for phase 2, I'm not sure which concept plan is being implemented, but the original estimation of land costs was between $8M and $40M, so I suppose it's much less than I suspected.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=ca

This is why I think the city should buy any property it might use for future developement. That way, perhaps when stage 1 needs major repairs, we could convert it to LRT, and add stage 2. I just don't see why it has to be done now.

[biguc]

It would cost billions to make Pembina free-flowing and would offer none of the positive externalities rapid transit does.

[Wpg transit 163-1]

Originally Posted by njaohnt

Building an overpass will speed up transit, and cars. If Pembina were free-flowing, and off-board fare collection was added, it would be faster than BRT, which currently has no off-board fare collection, and will go way out of the way to stay out of the railway. If we can make Pembina free-flowing for less than $590 000 000, I think it would be a better idea. If it would be kept at six lanes, it could have a bus lane, so that the bus will be at BRT speeds, no matter what happens to traffic. I don't believe in, "force feeding," people transit. We could even raise the gas tax to pay for the overpasses so that people will ride transit more.
This is why I think the city should buy any property it might use for future developement. That way, perhaps when stage 1 needs major repairs, we could convert it to LRT, and add stage 2. I just don't see why it has to be done now.

It has to be done now as you may have noticed the cost will continue to sky rocket. Do you know how much LRT would cost to build. Winnipeg can no longer have this kind of attitude toward RT we need to finish stage 2 and not debating lrt vs brt

[Arts]

Originally Posted by njaohnt

Building an overpass will speed up transit, and cars. If Pembina were free-flowing, and off-board fare collection was added, it would be faster than BRT, which currently has no off-board fare collection, and will go way out of the way to stay out of the railway. If we can make Pembina free-flowing for less than $590 000 000, I think it would be a better idea. If it would be kept at six lanes, it could have a bus lane, so that the bus will be at BRT speeds, no matter what happens to traffic. I don't believe in, "force feeding," people transit. We could even raise the gas tax to pay for the overpasses so that people will ride transit more.
This is why I think the city should buy any property it might use for future developement. That way, perhaps when stage 1 needs major repairs, we could convert it to LRT, and add stage 2. I just don't see why it has to be done now.

So you are suggesting 1) dedicated bus lane, 2) off-board fare collection and 3) routed on new infrastructure that is designed to make it as free-flowing as possible.

Sounds like the exact definition of BRT to me, all you need to do is add another hundred million for proper platforms/access.

Just you want private vehicles to simultaneously utilize this corridor and new infrastructure to optimize the cost-benefit ratio. Makes sense to me.

[njaohnt]

Originally Posted by Wpg transit 163-1

It has to be done now as you may have noticed the cost will continue to sky rocket. Do you know how much LRT would cost to build. Winnipeg can no longer have this kind of attitude toward RT we need to finish stage 2 and not debating lrt vs brt

The cost of maintaining the BRT is skyrocketing, too. So we build the corridor, so that the city must repave it when the cost has skyrocketed? It makes no sense to build something now to deal with higher prices. It might be cost-effective to build it a few years before it is worth it, but not now.

[njaohnt]

Originally Posted by Arts

So you are suggesting 1) dedicated bus lane, 2) off-board fare collection and 3) routed on new infrastructure that is designed to make it as free-flowing as possible.

Yes, I am just wondering if it is worth it to put in a bus lane through the interchanges needed along Pembina. There aren't that many light that need to be changed to interchanges, are there? If it's less than the current cost, it is definitely a better idea. Perhaps there would be transit priority at University Crescent. If it would cost too much, then they could just use four lanes, because it would still be free-flowing.

[njaohnt]

Originally Posted by biguc

It would cost billions to make Pembina free-flowing and would offer none of the positive externalities rapid transit does.

How many lights are there between Jubilee and the University?

[Biff]

Originally Posted by njaohnt

How many lights are there between Jubilee and the University?

11 signalized intersections and 34 street connections.

....and the possibility of making Pembina Hwy free flowing has about as much chance as getting my own personal freeway from my house to work......but I guess as in Dumb and Dumber "there is always a chance".

[esquire]

Pembina will never become a freeway. Even if $5 billion for transportation projects suddenly fell from the sky, the cost of converting Pembina into a free-flowing high speed route would never be justifiable in relation to other needs that could be accommodated with far more ease such as improvements to the ring route (Bishop/Lagimodiere/Chief Peguis), placement of interchanges at various bottlenecks, construction/replacement of bridges/overpasses, and yes, even rapid transit. Those would offer far more bang for the buck than converting a functional urban street into a freeway.

[njaohnt]

Originally Posted by Biff

11 signalized intersections and 34 street connections.

Okay, forget that idea. Unless we blocked off some of those intersections.