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  #141  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2018, 1:33 AM
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Given that some Liga MX teams fail to pay their players and are tied in with criminals I don't know why MLS would even bother. They already mutually compete in the CCL and Campeones Cup.

I'm also fairly certain FIFA would dislike the idea greatly.
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  #142  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2018, 8:40 PM
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Final 2018 MLS salaries (all figures USD):

https://public.tableau.com/shared/KN...ZCU2vInb7X00oQ

2018:
TFC: $26.6M
MTL: $12.6M
VWC: $8.1M

As comparison, ten years ago TFC's total wage bill was $2.7M.
When Whitecaps entered in 2011 their wage bill was $4M.
When Montreal entered in 2012 their wage bill was $4.8M.

Giovinco's $7.1M salary in 2018 is three times what the total TFC player wage bill was ten years ago.
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  #143  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2018, 8:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
Final 2018 MLS salaries (all figures USD):

https://public.tableau.com/shared/KN...ZCU2vInb7X00oQ

2018:
TFC: $26.6M
MTL: $12.6M
VWC: $8.1M

As comparison, ten years ago TFC's total wage bill was $2.7M.
When Whitecaps entered in 2011 their wage bill was $4M.
When Montreal entered in 2012 their wage bill was $4.8M.

Giovinco's $7.1M salary in 2018 is three times what the total TFC player wage bill was ten years ago.
Any 26.6M for a non-playoff team this year, I wonder if that along with the turf issues (yes I know it is being addressed), makes Giovinco consider not resigning
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  #144  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2018, 9:01 PM
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Any 26.6M for a non-playoff team this year, I wonder if that along with the turf issues (yes I know it is being addressed), makes Giovinco consider not resigning
Contract is up after next year. I imagine his complaining about the field is just Giovinco being Giovinco. Can't imagine it dictates whether or not he resigns. I would be curious how much TFC could fetch for him during the Winter transfer market if they were at all interested in moving him.

TFC were one win away from competing in the Club World Cup this year. The MLS season was beyond dreadful but that's the sort of money you may need to spend to be competitive internationally.
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  #145  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2018, 9:54 PM
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  #146  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2018, 5:05 PM
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Blech. None of the Canadian MLS teams qualified for the playoffs.
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  #147  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2018, 10:43 PM
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I wonder if TFC's season is the worst on record for a defending MLS Champion? It must be up there.

Bad season all around for Canadian clubs. TFC, Impact and Whitecaps all miss the playoffs and all are probably suffering substantial losses....especially TFC. Declining attendance, no playoff revenue and I'm sure the attendance will decline slightly next year given how poor they played this season. Might want to re-think spending $27 million or so on team salaries. Giovinco is declining and Altidore is always injured. I expect one or both of these players to be gone next year. Just not worth the money.

Even Ottawa in USL missed the playoffs. Bad year for Canadian soccer outside the national teams of course.
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  #148  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2018, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
Bad season all around for Canadian clubs. TFC, Impact and Whitecaps all miss the playoffs and all are probably suffering substantial losses....especially TFC. Declining attendance, no playoff revenue and I'm sure the attendance will decline slightly next year given how poor they played this season.
Whitecaps are making $22MUSD off of the sale of Davies to Bayern Munich so...they won't be in the red this season. And their attendance increased YoY.

Impact's salary is not that high v. expenses. They'll lose money but I view them as a pretty low cost team on the best of days. They invested in their roster and it just barely didn't pay off. (In 2016 Impact lost $3MUSD on revenues of $25MUSD on a valuation of $175MUSD. Whitecaps are in a similar boat). https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissm.../#60e3664b815d

Additional CCL matches this year will make up for some lack of playoff games for TFC. I'm unsure if CONCACAF has TV distribution packages similar to what UEFA has for Champions League. Attendance decreased for TFC season matches but if you combine with the sheer number of games they played this season (CCL & CC) it's mostly breakeven.

Even with a slight decrease in attendance this year MLS average ticket prices are increasing. Attendance is at the point now where teams are building new stadiums (LAFC, DC United, Minnesota) that are below the league's average.

Last edited by JHikka; Oct 29, 2018 at 11:01 PM.
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  #149  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2018, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
I wonder if TFC's season is the worst on record for a defending MLS Champion? It must be up there.

Bad season all around for Canadian clubs. TFC, Impact and Whitecaps all miss the playoffs and all are probably suffering substantial losses....especially TFC. Declining attendance, no playoff revenue and I'm sure the attendance will decline slightly next year given how poor they played this season. Might want to re-think spending $27 million or so on team salaries. Giovinco is declining and Altidore is always injured. I expect one or both of these players to be gone next year. Just not worth the money.

Even Ottawa in USL missed the playoffs. Bad year for Canadian soccer outside the national teams of course.
This year they were focused on CCL, and they lost in the final by a penalty kick. It was a historic run with them defeating the cream of Liga MX teams. Next year they'll come in tested and they'll decide which league to focus on (a good problem to have). TFC supporters are proud of this season, as we were for the last two, TFC is ascendant not declining by a longshot. They humbled the league leaders 4-1 yesterday.
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  #150  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2018, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
Whitecaps are making $22MUSD off of the sale of Davies to Bayern Munich so...they won't be in the red this season. And their attendance increased YoY.

Impact's salary is not that high v. expenses. They'll lose money but I view them as a pretty low cost team on the best of days. They invested in their roster and it just barely didn't pay off. (In 2016 Impact lost $3MUSD on revenues of $25MUSD on a valuation of $175MUSD. Whitecaps are in a similar boat). https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissm.../#60e3664b815d

Additional CCL matches this year will make up for some lack of playoff games for TFC. I'm unsure if CONCACAF has TV distribution packages similar to what UEFA has for Champions League. Attendance decreased for TFC season matches but if you combine with the sheer number of games they played this season (CCL & CC) it's mostly breakeven.

Even with a slight decrease in attendance this year MLS average ticket prices are increasing. Attendance is at the point now where teams are building new stadiums (LAFC, DC United, Minnesota) that are below the league's average.
Davies sale will help the Whitecaps for sure for the next few seasons. Without that, they are a perennial money loser, even with relatively low team salaries.

Both the Lions and the Whitecaps exaggerate their attendances. There have been a few articles in Vancouver that discovered both teams announced vs. actual attendance had quite the disparity -- several thousand per game. Lots of pro teams do this of course, but probably not to the extent of this. My guess is the Whitecaps paid attendance then many would anticipate. Factor in the lack of ancillary revenues for the Caps with no parking, no naming rights, limited concession revenues, no concert revenue at BC Place and their revenues are basically maxed out. There was a tweet last year from a well-placed source that basically said as much.

The Impact saw their attendance fall this year. Factor in the rise in team salaries from last year, no playoffs and no significant new sources of revenue and the team losses are fairly significant. Saputo said so himself although I'm sure some of those losses ($11 - $12 million annually) are a result of debt he carries on his expansion purchase and renos to stadium. He wants to expand his season ticket base to 13,000 and raise the average ticket price but it doesn't mean he will be able to do that especially with the notoriously fickle Quebec sports fans involved. My guess is attendance will decline further next year.

It's also well-known that Saputo Stadium is one of the worst stadiums in the league with limited revenue potential given the lack of high-end seating options. Saputo wants to invest a further $50 million into the stadium to try and keep up with the better stadiums in the US. The question is, will he?

My guess would be if the situation remains status quo one or both of Montreal or Vancouver will move to a US city in the next 5 - 10 years if their current situation remains the same - no new stadium with complete control of revenue streams in Vancouver and a substantial upgrade to Saputo Stadium in Montreal. A better exchange rate would help too.

As for Toronto, the additional home games from the CONCACAF tournament in the spring will be off-set by the lack of playoff revenue this fall. Also, attendance was down a thousand per game. I bet attendance will drop a little next year given how poorly the team played this year. As long as they maintain an absurdly high payroll they will continue to have 8 figure losses. With MLSE owning the team however, they are probably fine with the losses.
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  #151  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2018, 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted by mistercorporate View Post
This year they were focused on CCL, and they lost in the final by a penalty kick. It was a historic run with them defeating the cream of Liga MX teams. Next year they'll come in tested and they'll decide which league to focus on (a good problem to have). TFC supporters are proud of this season, as we were for the last two, TFC is ascendant not declining by a longshot. They humbled the league leaders 4-1 yesterday.
Did the league leaders have anything to play for though.
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  #152  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2018, 12:53 AM
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Davies sale will help the Whitecaps for sure for the next few seasons. Without that, they are a perennial money loser, even with relatively low team salaries.
Because of the franchise setup of MLS it's a bit more complicated than an owner losing or making money given that franchise owners are investor-operators, meaning that MLS effectively owns the team and the owners buy into both MLS as well as their local market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
Both the Lions and the Whitecaps exaggerate their attendances. There have been a few articles in Vancouver that discovered both teams announced vs. actual attendance had quite the disparity -- several thousand per game.
I posted these numbers a few weeks ago in the attendance/marketing thread for anyone that's interested.

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Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
Lots of pro teams do this of course, but probably not to the extent of this.
I'm pretty sure most do to the same extent or more. Check out visuals of NFL stadiums and their posted attendances. The issues arise when teams are massively dependent on gate receipts to function. MLS teams in particular are relying less on gates as sponsorship and TV grows.

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Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
My guess is the Whitecaps paid attendance then many would anticipate. Factor in the lack of ancillary revenues for the Caps with no parking, no naming rights, limited concession revenues, no concert revenue at BC Place and their revenues are basically maxed out.
MLS is offering additional ad space on sleeves starting next season worth between $1M-$2M per season per team. Whitecaps also benefit from general league-wide sponsorship deals include kit suppliers and TV deals which have been rising.

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Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
The Impact saw their attendance fall this year. Factor in the rise in team salaries from last year, no playoffs and no significant new sources of revenue and the team losses are fairly significant.
See above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
Saputo said so himself although I'm sure some of those losses ($11 - $12 million annually) are a result of debt he carries on his expansion purchase and renos to stadium.
Impact valuation and revenues continue to rise. As long as debt v revenue doesn't get insane then this is fine in the short term.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
He wants to expand his season ticket base to 13,000 and raise the average ticket price but it doesn't mean he will be able to do that especially with the notoriously fickle Quebec sports fans involved. My guess is attendance will decline further next year.
MLS average ticket prices on the whole are on the rise. Impact only had 9,500 STHs in 2016 and 8,000 in 2012 so 13K is a pretty good target to strive for, IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
It's also well-known that Saputo Stadium is one of the worst stadiums in the league with limited revenue potential given the lack of high-end seating options. Saputo wants to invest a further $50 million into the stadium to try and keep up with the better stadiums in the US. The question is, will he?
Could I get sourcing on this?

Just last year the Impact put $3M into Stade Saputo to improve things like concessions and customer experience.

Losing a few million a year can't be that bad if he's considering putting $50M into the stadium itself. Again, MLS revenue streams are expected to continue to rise, so expenditures (see: salaries) can rise in step.

Most polls of MLS stadiums I found had Saputo around 12-16 overall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
My guess would be if the situation remains status quo one or both of Montreal or Vancouver will move to a US city in the next 5 - 10 years if their current situation remains the same - no new stadium with complete control of revenue streams in Vancouver and a substantial upgrade to Saputo Stadium in Montreal. A better exchange rate would help too.
See above. Also, MLS would rather expand into new markets than relocate into them for a number of different reasons. I have a tough time believing either team is entertaining the possibility of relocating. This is all speculative at best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
As for Toronto, the additional home games from the CONCACAF tournament in the spring will be off-set by the lack of playoff revenue this fall. Also, attendance was down a thousand per game. I bet attendance will drop a little next year given how poorly the team played this year. As long as they maintain an absurdly high payroll they will continue to have 8 figure losses. With MLSE owning the team however, they are probably fine with the losses.
See above.

Further MLS expansion fees will be filtered to the franchises to offset deficits in the short-term.

For everthing above, Isaac Krasny covered this pretty well:

"Even if expenses are outpacing revenue at this point, given the steady growth of the league and its ability to command higher and higher prices for equity stakes, it would suggest that those who have seen the books are convinced MLS is a solid investment. As recently as 2016 Providence Equity Partners opted to retain their stake in SUM, not something they’d have done were MLS a sinking ship. Additionally, were MLS to find itself in some kind of cash crisis, it would likely have little trouble taking on debt with such a robust income. And finally, MLS could always issue a capital call to its Investor-Operators, who represent well over $100 billion in cash and assets. It seems highly unlikely, given the information available, that MLS would suddenly fail."

https://medium.com/@isaac_krasny/unp...l-827f4b784bcd
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  #153  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2018, 12:57 PM
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Did the league leaders have anything to play for though.
The league leaders were hoping to break Toronto's points record and secure their first piece of silverware (the Supporters Shield). They brought their A-team and got smashed. I don't think they've ever defeated Toronto since they joined the league.
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