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  #81  
Old Posted Oct 7, 2018, 3:40 PM
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
Is a world destroyed by global warming really worse than one destroyed by war and dominated by the most powerful? It wouldn't be the first time attempts at domination were made in the name of building a better world.
Objectively, no. Because a world destroyed by global warming would barely sustain human life, our population would collapse and we'd end up back in the stone age, so it might even be fun!
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  #82  
Old Posted Oct 7, 2018, 4:23 PM
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I've been starting to think the same thing, except that we also need a foreign component to this strategy, forcibly bending China/India/Africa to our choices.

The entirety of Canada could commit Voluntary Human Extinction tomorrow and it would have no impact on the planet, so we might as well continue to live, given that.
China is actually taking Climate Change seriously and is pursuing measures to reduce emissions. The U.S. on the other hand is ramping up their emissions in what can only be described as stupid, suicidal spite to own the Libs. The Republican party and their wealthy donors are fiddling while the world burns. Dog Fart, Jason Kenney vs Spenny and Scott D’Oh are recklessly joining them. This whole argument about China being the boogeyman is just a cynical ploy to convince us that there’s nothing we can do anyway.
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Last edited by O-tacular; Oct 7, 2018 at 4:58 PM.
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  #83  
Old Posted Oct 7, 2018, 4:58 PM
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China will get a free ride due to its one child policy. Once population shrinks, emissions will fall. Such is already the case in Japan and much of Europe.

The US will be the first country to reduce emissions while growing its population and energy production. Government policy is irrelevant as it only drives innovation in pursuit of military advantage. The prize for delivering a scalable replacement to fossil fuels is too great for the US private sector to not win.
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  #84  
Old Posted Oct 7, 2018, 4:59 PM
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Originally Posted by O-tacular View Post
China is actually taking Climate Change seriously and is pursuing measures to reduce emissions. The U.S. on the other hand is ramping up their emissions in what can only be described as stupid, suicidal spite to own the Libs. The Republican party and their wealthy donors are fiddling while the world burns. Dog Fart, Jason Kenney vs Spenny and Scott D’Oh are recklessly joining them. This whole argument about China being the boogeyman is just a cynical ploy to convince us that there’s nothing we can do anyway.
Well, I hate the current American administration as much as anyone who is even moderately informed and not on one of the two tribes... but China is still worse. The camps for Uighurs, for example - they're literally building hundreds of crematoriums near them. At first everyone assumed only to ensure the Uighurs could not bury their loved ones as their religion dictates, but there are so many going up people are starting to get even more worried. They suspected the Chinese government was organ harvesting (it's probably the only country where you can make an appointment for an organ transplant - you don't need to wait for whatever you need, they'll get one), but now they think they're preparing to just straight up kill them.

Kids in cages, Kavanaugh, all the rest... it's awful and we should be against both, pushing for some kind of sensible superpower, but China as a welcome alternative to the United States should be a non-started. Neither, please.
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  #85  
Old Posted Oct 7, 2018, 5:05 PM
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Well, I hate the current American administration as much as anyone who is even moderately informed and not on one of the two tribes... but China is still worse. The camps for Uighurs, for example - they're literally building hundreds of crematoriums near them. At first everyone assumed only to ensure the Uighurs could not bury their loved ones as their religion dictates, but there are so many going up people are starting to get even more worried. They suspected the Chinese government was organ harvesting (it's probably the only country where you can make an appointment for an organ transplant - you don't need to wait for whatever you need, they'll get one), but now they think they're preparing to just straight up kill them.

Kids in cages, Kavanaugh, all the rest... it's awful and we should be against both, pushing for some kind of sensible superpower, but China as a welcome alternative to the United States should be a non-started. Neither, please.
Oh by no means am I saying China is a better alternative to the US. I was merely pushing back on Lio saying that they’re doing nothing about Climate Change. Unfortunately they’re raping the environment across the globe in other ways. To say nothing of their awful record on human rights.
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  #86  
Old Posted Oct 7, 2018, 5:57 PM
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As much as I'm pro-democracy, I'm actually starting to learn towards the idea that authoritarianism and repeal of democracy is justifiable to stop climate change. We're trending towards destroying our own civilization because populist politicians get votes for promising to make gas cheaper.

Climate change is a severe, existential threat to human civilization and we're getting to the point where limiting its acceleration is a more important goal than anything else, including freedoms.
Many governments in the world have happily traded freedom of the people for various 'idealistic' causes. It has been the governments that have allowed their people freedom that have been most successful at change. Several European democracies have very enthusiastically accepted challenges with respect to climate change.

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We might kill off our species, but at least we did it democratically!
It beats killing off our species under authoritarianism. The slaughters that have occurred under absolute leaders far exceeded those done by democratic nations. I don't think the North Korea 'solution' of low carbon emissions is one we ought to follow.
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  #87  
Old Posted Oct 7, 2018, 6:02 PM
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Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker View Post
Well, I hate the current American administration as much as anyone who is even moderately informed and not on one of the two tribes... but China is still worse.

Kids in cages, Kavanaugh, all the rest... it's awful and we should be against both, pushing for some kind of sensible superpower, but China as a welcome alternative to the United States should be a non-started. Neither, please.
We get so blinded by our never-ending gaze on America (and some of the admittedly dumb things their government does) that we ignore the atrocities of others - in this case, China.

It's a disappointing shame that Canadians aren't more in tune with the rest of the world.
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  #88  
Old Posted Oct 7, 2018, 6:30 PM
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We get so blinded by our never-ending gaze on America (and some of the admittedly dumb things their government does) that we ignore the atrocities of others - in this case, China.

It's a disappointing shame that Canadians aren't more in tune with the rest of the world.
Lol tell me about it. Two other friends of mine and I are the only 3 amongst all our friends that will even pay attention to international news. Sometimes we just gotta sound the alarm, no?
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  #89  
Old Posted Oct 7, 2018, 8:05 PM
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Oh by no means am I saying China is a better alternative to the US. I was merely pushing back on Lio saying that they’re doing nothing about Climate Change.
Saying China is doing "nothing" about climate change is a decently good first approximation. If you insist on being anal, "China isn't doing close to enough about climate change at the moment to avoid us continuing to be on track to catastrophic warming". And that's saying nothing of Africa and the rest of the emerging countries.
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  #90  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2018, 1:18 AM
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It beats killing off our species under authoritarianism. The slaughters that have occurred under absolute leaders far exceeded those done by democratic nations. I don't think the North Korea 'solution' of low carbon emissions is one we ought to follow.
I don't know, the US has killed a lot of people. Those people were in autocratic nations, but make no mistake, it was America that pulled the trigger.
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  #91  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2018, 1:54 AM
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I don't know, the US has killed a lot of people. Those people were in autocratic nations, but make no mistake, it was America that pulled the trigger.
I don't know what you would consider a killing by a country, but the scale of deaths in China was astounding. It was in the tens of millions during Mao's rule. They murdered a significant portion of Chinese society. And by murdered I mean that the Communist party explicitly talked about killing tens of millions and then proceeded to go out and shoot, stab, strangle, or bury people alive, etc. It was not an abstract mass murder by inaction or starvation (although those happened in China as well).

Stalin oversaw intentional killings of millions too.

You could argue that the US had a hand in starting geopolitical domino effects that indirectly killed more people but this is a much weaker sense of "killing" and is not comparable.

Of course modern China and Russia are not as bad as they were 60 years ago but in the scheme of things, the US is one of the most benevolent major powers that has ever existed in the world, even if they are often really annoying. Canada is incredibly lucky that the worst thing we complain about is having to tweak trade deals with the next door neighbour that is 20x more powerful.
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  #92  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2018, 2:03 AM
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The US drives me nuts and pisses me off for many things but the world is incredibly lucky that they are the last remaining superpower.

You cannot know much about history if you think otherwise.
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  #93  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2018, 4:35 AM
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The US drives me nuts and pisses me off for many things but the world is incredibly lucky that they are the last remaining superpower.

You cannot know much about history if you think otherwise.
No argument there. That’s why it’s such a shame to see Trump effectively turning his back on the world and letting China and Russia run around unimpeded.
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  #94  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2018, 3:11 PM
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A bleak picture for the future. Based on our own domestic asshole politicians I have no faith we will achieve the required goal to avert extinction of half of all vertibrates and their habitats and the deaths of an additional 420 million people.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/worl...ath-warning-2/

Conservative ideology seems to be switching from outright denial to simply shrugging and saying ‘we don’t care’.
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  #95  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2018, 5:12 PM
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How is the USA the last superpower? China has a larger economy, an Air Force that's almost as powerful and a bigger army (albeit with half the number of 2nd/3rd generation tanks at the moment) all of which are growing quickly in capability and assets vs the USA whose number of military assets are actually shrinking. Give it a few years and it will be a decisively bigger superpower, they're already laying the groundwork by lending billions to developing countries to build themselves up using Chinese labour and knowhow. There are also other countries which may potentially rival China in power in the decades ahead, so we're far from done with superpower politics.
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  #96  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2018, 5:19 PM
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I should have said last surviving super power after the cold war. I still prefer the US over China.
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  #97  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2018, 5:28 PM
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How is the USA the last superpower? China has a larger economy, an Air Force that's almost as powerful and a bigger army (albeit with half the number of 2nd/3rd generation tanks at the moment) all of which are growing quickly in capability and assets vs the USA whose number of military assets are actually shrinking. Give it a few years and it will be a decisively bigger superpower, they're already laying the groundwork by lending billions to developing countries to build themselves up using Chinese labour and knowhow. There are also other countries which may potentially rival China in power in the decades ahead, so we're far from done with superpower politics.
China has almost no ability to project power. They have a smaller carrier fleet than Italy. They have no significant military alliances, and are geographically quite hemmed in. They may be a superpower in the future, but are far from it now.
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  #98  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2018, 5:47 PM
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Objectively, no. Because a world destroyed by global warming would barely sustain human life, our population would collapse and we'd end up back in the stone age, so it might even be fun!
I could see global warming eventually leading to a population decline, particularly in low-lying and arid regions. But huge swaths of the planet would still be perfectly capable of sustainable human life (we’re a tropical species that evolved on the equator) and human civilization.
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  #99  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2018, 5:51 PM
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China has almost no ability to project power. They have a smaller carrier fleet than Italy. They have no significant military alliances, and are geographically quite hemmed in. They may be a superpower in the future, but are far from it now.
That can change fairly quickly (10-15 years).

If I was Australia, I would be worried.
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  #100  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2018, 6:13 PM
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That can change fairly quickly (10-15 years).

If I was Australia, I would be worried.
That is a hell of a supply line, even Imperial Japan wasn’t willing to try that.
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