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  #321  
Old Posted Aug 9, 2016, 5:41 PM
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Originally Posted by ac888yow View Post
In general, I'm against things that make it any easier for people to live far outside the urban area but continue to make their living here, especially if it means they exit the Ottawa tax base and become part of another municipality. It's bad enough that our largest suburb fits this description (well, except for the "far outside" part).
Which suburb are you referring to? Gatineau? It is the only major suburb that is outside of Ottawa's (and Ontario's) tax base that I can think of.
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  #322  
Old Posted Aug 9, 2016, 5:57 PM
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Yep, that's the one.
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  #323  
Old Posted Aug 9, 2016, 7:26 PM
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To be fair, we have to leave Gatineau out of this discussion because it represents a core part of the city. We have to accept that Gatineau is in a different jurisdiction but both cities need to share in the responsibilities of running the overall city in an efficient manner. This includes transportation infrastructure.
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  #324  
Old Posted Aug 9, 2016, 7:39 PM
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That's a whole discussion that deserves its own focus. My point was only to express my opinion that I'm against things that make it easy(ier) for people to earn a living here and then buzz off.
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  #325  
Old Posted Aug 9, 2016, 7:59 PM
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While I can understand the concerns regarding taxpayer flight, my observation has been that many cities around the world have actually seen themselves greatly strengthened by the presence of extensive commuter transportation networks (usually rail-based) that easily bring people and their activities and interests to the urban core of the region.

In order for this to work you need the central city to be a strong, attractive and dominant destination, as opposed to have a fragile central city like Detroit, etc. Without going overboard, I'd say central Ottawa is pretty close to being that type of strong magnet city for the region that surrounds it.
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  #326  
Old Posted Aug 9, 2016, 8:13 PM
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Indeed. When we reach a certain critical mass we can begin banishing people from the city
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  #327  
Old Posted Aug 9, 2016, 8:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
While I can understand the concerns regarding taxpayer flight, my observation has been that many cities around the world have actually seen themselves greatly strengthened by the presence of extensive commuter transportation networks (usually rail-based) that easily bring people and their activities and interests to the urban core of the region.

In order for this to work you need the central city to be a strong, attractive and dominant destination, as opposed to have a fragile central city like Detroit, etc. Without going overboard, I'd say central Ottawa is pretty close to being that type of strong magnet city for the region that surrounds it.
This isn't really commuter rail. This is rural rail designed to encourage people to live up to 100km from the city, well beyond the suburbs (which are at most 30-40 km from the city). These routes are longer than most GO routes (despite the GTA having 5x the population) and would be the outer reaches of commuting to New York (with a metro population 20x bigger). It makes absolutely no sense for a mid-sized city with a modest growth rate and tonnes of available land, both outside and inside the greenbelt. People living that far out are not going to be integrated in the city or stick around to spend money, they're going to get on a train as fast as they can for a long, punishing commute. I certainly hope it fails.
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  #328  
Old Posted Aug 9, 2016, 9:32 PM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
This isn't really commuter rail. This is rural rail designed to encourage people to live up to 100km from the city, well beyond the suburbs (which are at most 30-40 km from the city). These routes are longer than most GO routes (despite the GTA having 5x the population) and would be the outer reaches of commuting to New York (with a metro population 20x bigger).
I'm not a fan, but here's a reality check. Distances from Ottawa:
  • Wakefield, QC: 32 km
  • Arnprior, ON: 55 km
  • Montebello, QC: 61 km
  • Bristol, QC: 64 km
  • Smiths Falls, ON: 64 km
  • Alexandria, ON: 80 km

Distances from Toronto:
  • Richmond Hill: 26 km
  • Lincolnville: 41 km
  • Milton: 41 km
  • Oshawa: 47 km
  • Hamilton: 57 km
  • Allandale Waterfront: 85 km
  • Kitchener: 92 km

So yes the shorter lines are shorter on GO, but the longer lines are longer on GO. Overall, I think they are similar in distances.

Note: distances were measured with straight lines. Neither city has straight tracks though, so I think it will balance.

Quote:
It makes absolutely no sense for a mid-sized city with a modest growth rate and tonnes of available land, both outside and inside the greenbelt.
On that I agree. Ottawa has a significantly smaller population than Toronto, and the cities served by GO are much larger than the towns Moose proposes to serve. It just doesn't make sense.

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People living that far out are not going to be integrated in the city or stick around to spend money, they're going to get on a train as fast as they can for a long, punishing commute.
That's not the responsibility of a private organization, so why does it matter?

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I certainly hope it fails.
A bit harsh IMHO. I would say I doubt if it will succeed.
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  #329  
Old Posted Aug 9, 2016, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
I'm not a fan, but here's a reality check. Distances from Ottawa:
  • Wakefield, QC: 32 km
  • Arnprior, ON: 55 km
  • Montebello, QC: 61 km
  • Bristol, QC: 64 km
  • Smiths Falls, ON: 64 km
  • Alexandria, ON: 80 km

Distances from Toronto:
  • Richmond Hill: 26 km
  • Lincolnville: 41 km
  • Milton: 41 km
  • Oshawa: 47 km
  • Hamilton: 57 km
  • Allandale Waterfront: 85 km
  • Kitchener: 92 km

So yes the shorter lines are shorter on GO, but the longer lines are longer on GO. Overall, I think they are similar in distances.

Note: distances were measured with straight lines. Neither city has straight tracks though, so I think it will balance.



On that I agree. Ottawa has a significantly smaller population than Toronto, and the cities served by GO are much larger than the towns Moose proposes to serve. It just doesn't make sense.



That's not the responsibility of a private organization, so why does it matter?



A bit harsh IMHO. I would say I doubt if it will succeed.
I don't know, I punched montebello and Alexandria into google maps and got more than 100 km each, which are both more than any go lines.
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  #330  
Old Posted Aug 9, 2016, 11:29 PM
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Although this may be an unpopular opinion on this forum but I think that spreading people out more into rural areas is a good thing. Far too many rural towns are shrinking and dying away due to the shift in the economy, rural rail can be a solution. We don't want Canada to end up being a dozen large cities with an uninhabited wasteland everywhere else.
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  #331  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2016, 12:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
To be fair, we have to leave Gatineau out of this discussion because it represents a core part of the city. We have to accept that Gatineau is in a different jurisdiction but both cities need to share in the responsibilities of running the overall city in an efficient manner. This includes transportation infrastructure.
Exactly, I wouldn't consider Gatineau - in the broad sense - as a suburb, but rather as the core city for the Quebec side. (Although large parts of it form suburbs in themselves)
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  #332  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2016, 2:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
Yes, by all means, lets have Ottawa taxpayers continue to subsidize southern Ontario's urban transit and intercity transport.

I'm not sold on MOOSE or a regional rail system, either, but can we at least have a project to test the feasibility of re-using another underused local rail line? I am not convinced that such a project is NOT feasible.
Very true.

Conversely, by all means let's have the taxpayers of SWO continue to subsidize the extension of the Confederation Line while SWO has no rapid transit yet has hundreds of thousands of more people than Ottawa while Ottawa is already the recipient of the federal governments largess.
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  #333  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2016, 2:28 AM
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Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
Very true.

Conversely, by all means let's have the taxpayers of SWO continue to subsidize the extension of the Confederation Line while SWO has no rapid transit yet has hundreds of thousands of more people than Ottawa while Ottawa is already the recipient of the federal governments largess.
KW is getting light rail of a greater size than Ottawa. London would have had light rail funded but they opted for BRT. SWO to Toronto will likely have the first high speed rail in Canada. Sure, SWO is in bad shape.... Not even mentioning the intense Go network that will even reach London.

Anyways, this project isn't even tax payer funded so 0$ will be coming from SWO.
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  #334  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2016, 3:01 AM
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Originally Posted by FFX-ME View Post
Although this may be an unpopular opinion on this forum but I think that spreading people out more into rural areas is a good thing. Far too many rural towns are shrinking and dying away due to the shift in the economy, rural rail can be a solution. We don't want Canada to end up being a dozen large cities with an uninhabited wasteland everywhere else.
The areas uninhabited by humans could be wonderful chunks of natural habitat that animals can roam free.
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  #335  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2016, 3:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
This isn't really commuter rail. This is rural rail designed to encourage people to live up to 100km from the city, well beyond the suburbs (which are at most 30-40 km from the city). These routes are longer than most GO routes (despite the GTA having 5x the population) and would be the outer reaches of commuting to New York (with a metro population 20x bigger). It makes absolutely no sense for a mid-sized city with a modest growth rate and tonnes of available land, both outside and inside the greenbelt. People living that far out are not going to be integrated in the city or stick around to spend money, they're going to get on a train as fast as they can for a long, punishing commute. I certainly hope it fails.
I don't feel strongly about it either way. Just trying to get people to look at it from a different angle.
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  #336  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2016, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
I'm not a fan, but here's a reality check. Distances from Ottawa:
  • Wakefield, QC: 32 km
  • Arnprior, ON: 55 km
  • Montebello, QC: 61 km
  • Bristol, QC: 64 km
  • Smiths Falls, ON: 64 km
  • Alexandria, ON: 80 km

Distances from Toronto:
  • Richmond Hill: 26 km
  • Lincolnville: 41 km
  • Milton: 41 km
  • Oshawa: 47 km
  • Hamilton: 57 km
  • Allandale Waterfront: 85 km
  • Kitchener: 92 km

So yes the shorter lines are shorter on GO, but the longer lines are longer on GO. Overall, I think they are similar in distances.
Just for fun - populations of these centres (mostly from 2011 census data)
MOOSE routes
  • Wakefield, QC: 2,000 residents (La Peche municipality 7,619)
  • Arnprior, ON: 10,500
  • Montebello, QC: 978 (Papineau MRC 22,541)
  • Bristol, QC: 1,128 (Pontiac MRC 14,358)
  • Smiths Falls, ON: 8,978
  • Alexandria, ON: 10,251

GO to/from Toronto:
  • Richmond Hill: 185,540
  • Lincolnville: 37.628 (whitchurch-stouffville)
  • Milton: 84,362
  • Oshawa: 161,487 (+Whitby 122,022 + Pickering 88,721 + Ajax 109,600)
  • Hamilton: 519,950 (+ Burlington 175,780)
  • Allandale Waterfront: 128,430
  • Kitchener: 219,153 (+Waterloo 98,780)

I honestly do not see how MOOSE can have any level of justifiable ridership numbers. Only 2 of those places listed (Wakefield, Montebello) have any tourism appeal as well.
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  #337  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2016, 1:12 PM
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Originally Posted by FFX-ME View Post
Although this may be an unpopular opinion on this forum but I think that spreading people out more into rural areas is a good thing. Far too many rural towns are shrinking and dying away due to the shift in the economy, rural rail can be a solution. We don't want Canada to end up being a dozen large cities with an uninhabited wasteland everywhere else.
Not sure that trying to turn rural Ontario into a giant suburb is either feasible or desirable. I agree that rural communities have challenges, but when a rural community becomes a bedroom community it hurts the agriculture sector, hurts the industrial sector, hurts the tourism sector and hurts the retail sector. Existing residents face higher taxes (because the transplanted suburbanites want the same services they had in Barrhaven) higher housing prices and a loss of community. New residents face punishing commutes and a lifestyle that isn't any different than the suburb they left behind. Nobody wins, except the land speculators.
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  #338  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2016, 3:15 PM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
I don't know, I punched montebello and Alexandria into google maps and got more than 100 km each, which are both more than any go lines.
As I mentioned, I used straight lines to measure the distance not driving distances. It is true that when driving, Alexandria is about 103 km, but it isn't very direct and the rail route would actually be shorter (if you follow the tracks using Google's measure tool, it's 86 km). Montebello is only about 80 km driving.

If you want to use driving distances, both the Kitchener and Allandale Waterfront GO stations are 107 km driving to Union Station, using the shortest route according to Google, which is marginally more than Alexandria.
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  #339  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2016, 8:43 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
Not sure that trying to turn rural Ontario into a giant suburb is either feasible or desirable. I agree that rural communities have challenges, but when a rural community becomes a bedroom community it hurts the agriculture sector, hurts the industrial sector, hurts the tourism sector and hurts the retail sector. Existing residents face higher taxes (because the transplanted suburbanites want the same services they had in Barrhaven) higher housing prices and a loss of community. New residents face punishing commutes and a lifestyle that isn't any different than the suburb they left behind. Nobody wins, except the land speculators.
I'd rather have the exurban communities turned into "giant suburbs" built around commuter rail stations, than keep on building more resource-devouring Barr Havens, Kanatas, and Orleanses.
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  #340  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2016, 8:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
I'd rather have the exurban communities turned into "giant suburbs" built around commuter rail stations, than keep on building more resource-devouring Barr Havens, Kanatas, and Orleanses.
How does encouraging people to live in Smiths Falls or Alexandria instead of Orleans or Kanata devour fewer resources? At the very least it encourages commuters to travel 2-3x farther.
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