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  #81  
Old Posted Mar 9, 2012, 8:19 PM
Toronto6A6B Toronto6A6B is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 202_Cyclist View Post
Toronto6A6B:


Here is the link from the City-data website:
http://www.city-data.com/forum/south...rees-sc-4.html

This is from three years ago and I just noticed the trees last week, so they're still alive. There are also two more palm trees in front of either the Smithsonian or the National Gallery.
That's encouraging, now I know Windmill palms survive in DC unprotected. That will narrow down to checking the minimum temperatures in DC in the winter, then compare to the min temperatures in SW/S On.
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  #82  
Old Posted Mar 9, 2012, 8:28 PM
Toronto6A6B Toronto6A6B is offline
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Zones in SW/S Ontario

I know, it's very confusing as I found conflicting websites as well. Some shows Windsor 6b whereas some shows Windsor 7a, St Catharines 7a, some even shows Pelee Island 7b ... Wow !

This website shows Windsor, St Catharines, Niagara Falls 7a, Pelee Island 7b
http://www.veseys.com/ca/en/learn/re...7mhnaoe012q070

This website shows St Catharines 7a, Windsor & Niagara Falls 6b
http://www.plantmaps.com/interactive...diness-map.php

But in both websites, St Catharines (Niagara-On-The-Lake) is in 7a.
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  #83  
Old Posted Mar 9, 2012, 8:46 PM
Toronto6A6B Toronto6A6B is offline
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According to this website: http://www.leonardholmes.com/palms/#1

Quote: (Windmill palms)
In the winter, they lose their leaves when the temperature drops below +10° F (-12.22C) for extended periods, and they can be killed below +5° F

Toronto, well borderline ! With global warming, the coldest nights were around -12C (+10F) in the past number (?) of years, I suppose TV stations used measurements from Pearson International Airport (Toronto) which is colder than downtown Toronto by 2 degrees Celsius.

Because my backyard is facing South, I kind of recall my measurement during those cold nights were always warmer than what it was forecast by a couple of degrees. So my backyard might be a microclimate !
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  #84  
Old Posted Mar 9, 2012, 8:55 PM
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From City Data:
http://www.city-data.com/forum/south...rees-sc-2.html

Quote:
As far as palms go, I even have some here at my home in northeast Tennessee! Hardy palms though, such as the Windmill, Sabal Minor and Needle Palm. ALL have thrived. I will post some photos tomorrow.

I checked USDA, NE Tennessee is in 6a which is the same as Toronto (6a 6b). So it looks like Windmill palms will survive in S/SW Ontario 6b/7a
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  #85  
Old Posted Mar 9, 2012, 9:02 PM
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From City Data:
http://www.city-data.com/forum/south...rees-sc-3.html

More evidents that Windmill palms survive colder climates such as NE Tennessee.
Quote:
I know many people even here in northeast Tennessee with Windmill palms. I actually have one that I had had for 5 years. These are hardy palms though and will survive down to 0°. Actually, I know of a family in Kingsport that even has a large Cabbage palm. Sounds strange, but there are palm trees in Tennessee

Quote:
Here is the Cabbage and an array of other palms at that home in Kingsport Tennessee (about 25 miles west of here)... Kingsport is about 1100-1200 ft. elevation and just south of the Tennessee-Virginia state line, so its extreme northern Tennessee. *Notice the heavy mulching at the base

Quote:
Tennessee-Virginia state line, so its extreme northern Tennessee:

OK, it's a 6a zone according to USDA

Quote:
This Windmill is in Sterling VA, about 25 miles WNW of Washington D.C. Its been there since 1994, and that is a zone 7A. Its a COLD suburb.

Quote:
http://www.city-data.com/forum/weath...mperate-9.html
I know there's palms here and there in NYC, nothing like Vancouver though (yet), I've seen some Windmill Palms surviving in the dead of winter. There were also palms in Hurricane Harbor (Six Flags waterpark) in Central New Jersey as well as the one in Maryland, however I went during the Summer so idk if they stay there or not. These are all Zone 7/8-ish areas, the vast majority of the "Northeast" is much colder.

Windmill palm will die at 5F (-15C), NE tennessee (This is a very good experience to learn from, at least we will need to protect it if the forecast is -15C (5F) in Toronto/SW Ontario).
Quote:
http://www.city-data.com/forum/weath...perate-12.html
No, the windmill palm is under a Mimosa (sp?) tree and at the southwest corner of the house. My last Windmill lived for 8 years and was huge... then we had an usually harsh cold morning when the temperature dropped to 5° (which was a record in January) and then it started to brown and never recovered. I thought after 8 years it would have been able to withstand a 5° temperature (I have heard they are OK down to about 0°), but not this one. I was crushed when it perished.

Last edited by Toronto6A6B; Mar 9, 2012 at 10:37 PM.
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  #86  
Old Posted Mar 9, 2012, 9:11 PM
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OK, the evidents are mounting that Windmill palms might/will survive in St Catharines/Niagara-On-The-Lake 7a, Windsor/SW Ontario 6b-7a, Niagara Falls 6b-7a
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  #87  
Old Posted Mar 11, 2012, 10:26 PM
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This is gorgeous! I noticed this while in Vancouver last year. Is it true that parts of BC have a 'desert' like climate, and (something similar to) cactus trees grow? Very cool!!
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  #88  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2012, 3:34 AM
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^ The Central and Southern Interior of BC (The Okanagan) has a very arid climate that is borderline desert in some area. There are wild cactuses (I grew up in Kelowna and have picked more than a few of them from my hands are playing in the sand. Painful stuff) all over the region. They are quite small, and can 'jump' out of the ground if you walk close to them. The needles are ultra sharp, and can go deep in to the skin.



http://www.gastonlacombe.com/blog/?p=786







http://www.venturevancouver.com/imag...ly-pear-cactus


Imagine having to pull these out of your face. One of my friends fell face-first in to a batch of these when we were kids, and we had to pull them off of his hands and face one by one.



http://www.geog.ubc.ca/biodiversity/...rsityinBC.html



For context, this is what the region looks like. I wouldn't recommend walking around in bare feet, if not for the cactus then at least for the rattlesnakes and black widow spiders.



http://www.gastonlacombe.com/blog/?p=786
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  #89  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2012, 6:39 AM
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Yeah, love that area, but the Thompson Valley is much drier than the Okanagan.

Anyways, I was in Tofino over the weekend (Tofino is a small beach / fishing town on the west coast of Vancouver Island, it is about a 5 hour trip from Vancouver west) and I took many pics of the palm trees they have there. In general they do not grow the windmill palm (save a few that I saw) but instead grow another variety that I have only seen a couple times in Vancouver. The couple in Vancouver are far smaller than the ones in Tofino, i believe this is because Tofino's winter is a couple degrees milder than Vancouver's (being moderated by the open Pacific Ocean and having the mountains on Vancouver Island shield the area from the worst of the winter cold spells). I am going to post a more full separate thread on Tofino soon, but here is a teaser for the palms they have there:















All pics are my own:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30634635@N03/

Cheers
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  #90  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2012, 6:55 AM
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You know, I've been to Tofino over a dozen times, and have never noticed palm trees. Not sure how I managed to miss all those!

BTW, I think my favourite rare tree on the island is the monkey tree. I know there are a few in Nanaimo now, and I think I saw one in Vic last summer, too.
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  #91  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2012, 7:09 AM
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^ You can find Monkey Trees in Vancouver too.
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  #92  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2012, 7:12 AM
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really?? They are all over the place! Literally every third house / property had one of these palm trees. But this is just one of those things, people don't associate palm trees with Canada, so even in areas they are numerous, you can miss them simply because you are not expecting them, it is some sort of physiological thing. I had a friend who lived in Victoria for over a year who said she never saw a palm tree there, despite the fact that in Oak Bay alone there are over 2000 according to a recent count (and good sized ones as well, some over 3 stories tall now). Also, there are many monkey puzzle trees in Vancouver as well, there is a huge one in New Westminster and many in parks such as Queen Elizabeth Park.

Next time you are in Tofino, be sure to check out the palm trees! They match the setting there beautifully!
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  #93  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2012, 2:11 PM
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Beautiful palm trees !

Do you know what type of palm trees they are (other than windmill palms) ?

BTW, I saw pictures of big windmill palms in Niagara Falls (6b) but unfortunately they are sheltered inside a green house
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  #94  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2012, 3:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swinefeld View Post
Maybe with global warming even Philadelphia will have palm trees in the future. But it wold look kinda weird. Anyway, I liked the photos.
I don't see why not, within the urban heat island. I have a European Palm planted in my backyard here in St. Louis and that's not even the heartiest variety. I've definitely seen them in DC and I know of people who have them in Cincinnati. Draw a line connecting those three cities and then up along the coast a little further and you get an idea of where palms can grow in a reliable fashion within urban heat islands. Obviously I wouldnt spend a lot of time and money on them, because they will eventually get got (except *maybe* the heartiest variety) if you don't cover and heat them during cold snaps, but this winter was no problem (obviously).




I'm thinking about buying a needle palm for the front of the house, edit - here's the range...the east coast of the US benefits a lot from the marine influence...


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...dlepalmmap.PNG
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  #95  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2012, 8:59 PM
Toronto6A6B Toronto6A6B is offline
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That's encouraging, did you see any palm trees (windmill palms or others) that are adult size in Cincinnati ?

According to the USDA:
DC is in zone 7a (similar to St Catharines Ontario, Windsor Ontario).
Cincinnati 6a (city core near bordering state) 6b elsewhere
St Louis IL 6a6b
Phyladelphia 7a

So if St Louis IL could grow palm trees outdoors (to be verified), why not SW Ontario ?
Toronto 6a6b
Niagara Falls 6b
SW Ontario/Windsor 6b7a
St Catharines 7a
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  #96  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2012, 9:14 PM
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According to this website, Windmill palms are suitable for USDA zone 7b.
http://www.ehow.com/list_7573312_fas...ese-trees.html

Quote:
Windmill Palm
The Chinese windmill palm (Trachycarpus fortunei) is a cold hardy palm species that grows to be 20 to 40 feet tall. A native of southwestern China, the palm boasts feathery, rounded palm fronds and a slender trunk.
The palm produces bright yellow flowers followed by blueish fruits. Chinese windmill is suitable for USDA zones 7B to 10 (winter lows of 5 F to 40F), where it will thrive in a partial sun location and a well draining, moderately fertile soil. The drought-tolerant palm is fast growing when watered regularly. Windmill palm is tolerant of salty conditions and will grow in coastal locations. The palm may also be grown in an outdoor container.
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  #97  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2012, 9:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Toronto6A6B View Post
That's encouraging, did you see any palm trees (windmill palms or others) that are adult size in Cincinnati ?
No, but if I'm not mistaken the guy who literally wrote the book on growing northern palm trees is from Cincy. I think both Cincy and St. Louis have a tendency to set palms out in the summer in parks and even along city streets like in the median, so it can be deceiving what is year round or not.

I'm in St. Louis, Missouri, btw, with full southern exposure and urban heat island in full effect. I am usually 4 degrees or so warmer than the official temperature. I know in reading about growing D.C. palms, how much influence the urban heat island had on where you were in the region was very important. People grow them year round in Baltimore, too apparently.

A bad winter would probably wipe everything out here, unless a specimen was really established. But I have no idea. My Chamaerops humilis (in the above picture I posted) survived this winter about 80-90% intact (some browned fronds) and is already greening up really nicely.

My understanding is that you *might* be able to grow some palms in Toronto if you were well into the city and made sure that you watched the temperatures really closely and had the time to properly wrap/cover and heat (either with a block heater or christmas lights). I don't know what the average Toronto winter is like...if it's anything like Chicago you are going to have a challenge, to be sure.
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  #98  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2012, 9:58 PM
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No wonder your palm tree survive

YOUR St Louis MO: 7a (St Catharines On 7a; Niagara Falls On 6b; Windsor/SW On 6b7a)

St Louis IL: 6a6b (Toronto downtown 6b; Toronto not downdown 6a)

Yes, I checked my front yard (facing North) and back yard (facing South with full sun exposures but windy), the backyard is 3C (6F) warmer.
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  #99  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2012, 10:02 PM
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According to the previous link, Windmill palms are suitable for 7a.

Niagara Falls 6b; Windsor/SW On 6b7a; St Catharines/Niagara-On-The-Lake 7a: I think Windmill palms will survive, it's merely half a zone from 7a or right on 7a.

I wonder why Niagara Parks Commission doesn't even attempt to INSTALL mature windmill palms (10-15 feet at least) in the regions ? I saw a few Windmill palms inside a green house in Niagara Falls Ontario. But why not try them outdoors ?
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  #100  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2012, 11:26 PM
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Do you mean they should overwinter a 10 or 15 foot windmill palm in Ontario? I think they have to be "hardy" specimens grown with exposure to colder temperatures in order to survive, and I don't think they ever reach that size in colder areas.

As RyanNS said there are windmill palms that grow in milder parts of Nova Scotia and I have seen pictures from Massachusetts, Rhode Island, etc. They've all been little shrub-like bundles of palm leaves though, not tree-sized plants.

The zone maps are definitely not that accurate and don't reflect microclimates.
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