Denver Union Station & FasTracks

[Octavian]

Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280

Sorry for not doing the research myself, but when will the segment to DIA be completed? I always feel like crap making my sister drive like 25 miles to pick me up when I fly in. I would love to be able to shoot downtown on the train and reduce her drive to 5 minutes.

late 2015 or early 2016

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280

Sorry for not doing the research myself, but when will the segment to DIA be completed? I always feel like crap making my sister drive like 25 miles to pick me up when I fly in. I would love to be able to shoot downtown on the train and reduce her drive to 5 minutes.

You can already make this trip on transit, just not on a *train*. There are RTD buses that go to the airport from all over the region already. HERE is the schedule for the DIA-to-downtown limited.

They even have a nice map of airport buses:

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by SnyderBock

Wikipedia says the Silverline V's maximum speed is 100mph. Like SEPTA, Denver's RTD EMU lines will be run all on their own track. So I assume, if ever warranted, they could run the trains at higher speeds. .

There is more to running faster trains than just the vehicles used. If Eagle P3 is saying 79 mph, then I'm willing to bet they are designing the track for 79 mph, not 100.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

There is more to running faster trains than just the vehicles used. If Eagle P3 is saying 79 mph, then I'm willing to bet they are designing the track for 79 mph, not 100.

Probably, but it doesn't mean that they don't have the foresight to have the design include the possibility of upgrading to a higher speed later down the road. Maybe not by increasing unit speed, but by having the ability to introduce express service later on.

They've got a what, 40-year contract, to run the Airport Line? I'd plan ahead for the possibility of putting in express service at the least.

[SnyderBock]

Potentially great news! Denver/RTD are currently the only city/agency in the USA with a Design-Build-Finance-Operate-Maintain (DBFOM), Public-Private-Partnership (PPP or P3) transit project. The massive Eagle P3 EMU project discussed last week in this thread.

With this news, Denver/RTD may well be headed towards another DBFOM deal, this time for the remaining I-225 LRT project. The I-225 LRT line connects the I-25 SE LRT line in the Denver Tech Center (2nd largest employment center in the metro area) to the south and will have a transfer station with the East EMU Line to Denver International Airport in the north. In the middle, it will run through the Aurora City Center (Aurora has ~320,000 people) and the Fitzsimmons Bio-medical research campus, which is also one of the largest employment centers in the metro and still rapidly growing.

So, considering this is a suburb-to-suburb Light Rail Line, with major transfer stations on each terminus, one might think it wouldn't have great ridership. As traditionally, suburb-to-suburb lines have not been greatly successful and often frowned upon. But this is a special set of circumstances. This line is projected to have 34,200 daily riders by 2030.

RTD finds merit in Kiewit’s FasTracks pitch for I-225

Denver Business Journal by Heather Draper, Reporter
Date: Wednesday, April 18, 2012, 2:08pm MDT
Kiewit makes unsolicited bid to build light rail along I-225

RTD has decided that Kiewit Infrastructure Co.’s unsolicited bid to build a FasTracks light rail extension along Interstate 225 has merit.

Staff at the Regional Transportation District evaluated Kiewit’s bid, submitted March 8, “and has found it worthy of moving forward to a competitive procurement process,” RTD said in a press release Wednesday.

Later this spring, RTD will ask for competing bids from other companies via a formal request for proposals. Kiewit and any other interested firms would then have the opportunity to submit a detailed proposal.

Kiewit’s proposal tackles about nine miles of the I-225 rail line, which currently has a 10.5 mile gap between South Parker Road and Interstate 70 in Aurora. The route runs near the fast-growing Anschutz Medical Campus.

A light rail line currently runs along I-225 between Interstate 25 and Parker Road. Another rail line is planned along I-70...

http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/ne...fastracks.html

I-225 Corridor
Vehicle Type: Light Rail
Length (miles): 10.5
Stations: 7
Parking: 1,225 (existing), 1,800 (new)
Capital Cost: $619.6M*
2030 Weekday Ridership: 34,200
Proposed Frequency of Service (Rail): 7.5 min (peak)/10 min (off-peak)

[Launch 12]

So if this proposal is officially accepted, does that mean that the I-225 line would be completed prior to 2020?

Also, in other exciting news, an updated RTD light rail map showing the new W-line opening next year!

[SnyderBock]

Yes, it would likely mean a 2017 completion target. Too early to know details though. Kiewit is known for Design-Build, where they start construction before 100% design is completed, in order to condense construction schedule and shave 1-2 years off the timeline and also get it done cheaper than competition bids.

Other companies/conglomerations will know this. So in the open bidding process, there will be steep competition on getting it constructed both faster and cheaper. I would guess all bids would have completion dates between 2016-18.

[ardecila]

That map is such a weird mix of diagrammatic and geographically-accurate styles...

[Octavian]

Originally Posted by ardecila

That map is such a weird mix of diagrammatic and geographically-accurate styles...

Too complicated, they should combine the C/D lines and E/F lines into a single color with 2 destinations in downtown. "C line to Union Station," or "C line to Downing Station"

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

There is more to running faster trains than just the vehicles used. If Eagle P3 is saying 79 mph, then I'm willing to bet they are designing the track for 79 mph, not 100.

I agree.

I suspect a lot of property development will impinge on ROW that will prevent 4 track express stations, better multi-mode station interfaces, future changes in curve radii, triple tracking for higher capacities, etc.

Besides unless the Peoria Street Station has cross station boarding between the I-225 line and the Airport line, who, outside of those going to Fitz and DIA will want to use it?* How many people will either take their car or ride the bus to other stations to commute downtown? What would the cut off point on the I-225 line be, before going south on the line via an H type train would take less time to get to Lodo (remember if one takes the H train one does NOT have to transfer).

After all, this project is one of the 1990s ideas (goes back in Denver to wild wild west) where user demand is created after the line is built. I have serious doubts about whether this line will ever be as busy as the West Corridor line will be, and the Southwest Corridor and TRex from Parker to Boardway is)

Remember this is a 'Feather in Denver's Hat' type project, more than a serving urgent public need type project.


Yup, no express trains** and 79 mph max.

*I have been dehabilitated before. For about 2 months I had to use my cane. I could not get up the 4 steps into Light rail cars. I felt sorry for the engineer who had to go through 5 or 6 moves each time he or she lowered the floor level platform to the handcapped ramp. I never took the bus during that time, because I always took both the light rail and the bus to get to work.

I cannot imagine anyone handicapped wanting to take the DIA or the 1-225 line to Fitz if they have any movement triggered pain. For them, level platforms are bad enough.

For the reader, take the light rail and a bus ride next time you are on crutches. You'll see what I mean.

**A one stop at Peoria from DIA to Lodo would be very fast at a 60 mph average speed. 25 minutes to Lodo, including switching. 100mph might shave that off 5 to 7 minutes, as we are talking average velocity.

[ardecila]

Originally Posted by Wizened Variations

Besides unless the Peoria Street Station has cross station boarding between the I-225 line and the Airport line, who, outside of those going to Fitz and DIA will want to use it?* How many people will either take their car or ride the bus to other stations to commute downtown? What would the cut off point on the I-225 line be, before going south on the line via an H type train would take less time to get to Lodo (remember if one takes the H train one does NOT have to transfer).

The interlining makes it somewhat more challenging, but timetables could be shuffled so that transfers between 225 and East are timed.

There is a cross-platform transfer set up between outbound 225 and outbound East such that people from Aurora can get off at Peoria and walk onto a DIA-bound train.

Plus, you've got major TODs at Stapleton, Aurora Town Center, and Fitzsimons as you mention, all of which should see significant employment.

Also - it's not like these stations are being built in constrained urban environments. If there's ever a need for certain stations on the East corridor to expand, you just remove some parking spaces and add more platforms. It's not that difficult or expensive.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Wizened Variations

What would the cut off point on the I-225 line be, before going south on the line via an H type train would take less time to get to Lodo (remember if one takes the H train one does NOT have to transfer).

I think that cutoff is supposed to be at Florida, which is where the one-seat southbound ride into downtown will start. For everybody else it will theoretically be faster to go north and transfer (they do get a boost from the fact that the East Line is pretty dang fast, with few stops).

[bunt_q]

The stations aren't the only consideration if we're still talkimg about future upgrades from 79mph to something else. Even if you have express options, and even if you can reduce the number of at-grade crossings, there are still higher trackwork design standards and tighter construciton tolerances that would have to be met everywhere. It might mean reconstructing a good chunk of the line. Totally unnecessary. I'm perfectly happy with 29 minutes (or 34, might be the new number) from DIA to downtown. If you're concerned about speed, you should be less concerned about future upgrades than about the possibility of adding 2 or 3 or 4 station to serve the nonsense being built out by the airport.

We are all Denver!

[Wizened Variations]

I agree. The question always is "average speed" over "distance." Average speed divided by distance travelled, of course, results in "average"
time. A train can run 60 mph for 1 mile in 1 minute, while station stops, track switching, work orders, etc., can make a train travel that 1 mile take 3, 4, or even 5 minutes- 20 mph average, 15 mph average, and, 12 mph average respectively.

Of course, commuting by train, light rail, or bus is more than average vehicle velocity between end points on a given line. One has to add time to get to feeder modes, time to transfer between transportation modes, and, time to get to destinations at the end of the ride to get true average speed.

In RTD's case, for example, between Broadway St and DIA:

Say 10-15 minutes from home to Broadway station
Say 5 minutes from Bus (or parked car- a no no) to platform
Say a wait of 10 minutes to board correct train
Say 14-15 minutes to DUS Light rail station
Say 10 minutes to exit train and walk via Underground to commuter rail

Say 15 minutes (optimal) for train, then boarding
Say 35 minutes to DIA
______________
99 to 105 minutes

Ok what about going the other way, via TREX and the extended I-225 line
to Peoria?

Say 10-15 minutes from home to Broadway station
Say 5 minutes from Bus (or parked car- a no no) to platform
Say 15 minute wait for the H train
Say 15 minutes from Broadway to Nine Mile Station
Say 15 minutes to Peoria (doglegs through Aurora Civic Complex and
Fitz area
Say 10 minutes to exit the light rail, walk to appropriate commuter platform
Say a 15-30 minute wait for the train
Say 16-18 minutes to DIA.
_______________
91 - 113 minutes

This gets interesting when one looks at other source points:


Say 10-15 minutes from home to Mineral station
Say 5- 10 minutes from Bus (or parked car- a no no) to platform
(a longer walk)
Say a 1-15 minute wait for a train
Say 5 to 15 minutes as all trains northboard from Mineral go through Broadway
Say 22-27 minutes from Mineral to LODO light rail
Say 10 minutes to exit train and walk via Underground to commuter rail
Say 15 minutes (optimal) for train, then boarding
Say 35 minutes to DIA

________________
111- 146 minutes


Say 10-15 minutes from home to Mineral station
Say 5-10 minutes from Bus (or parked car- a no no) to platform
(a longer walk)
Say 15 minutes to Broadway
~1/3 of trains southboard on Central Corridor would go through
to Peoria- a 10 to 15 minute wait
Say 15 minutes from Broadway to Nine Mile Station
Say 15 minutes to Peoria (doglegs through Aurora Civic Complex and
Fitz area
Say 10 minutes to exit the light rail, walk to appropriate commuter platform
Say 16-18 minutes to DIA.

________________
86 - 104 minutes

(In addition, I have chose near ideal connection times. What about late at night etc., and slower frequencies?)

The question always has been Average Speed and time spent traveling.

So, how long would non-stop bus take to travel between Mineral to DIA or Broadway to DIA? Add the normal getting to the transit point times, and you have somewhere between 50-70 minutes for the Broadway to DIA and Mineral to DIA
legs.*

The whole steel rail buildout system, obviously, is set up for LODO. And, in that respesct, LODOs movers and shakers pulled off one of the great con jobs in Denver history.
(If they only had made a few sacrifices we could have had something world class, not just Denver Chamber of Commerce 'slick"

*If you take you own car, subtract 10-20 minutes from the bus figure, and, add it back in for the walk from Parking to the Terminal (if you are going to park your car there)

[SnyderBock]

No comment. That's for the best. Trust me.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Wizened Variations

This gets interesting when one looks at other source points:


Say 10-15 minutes from home to Mineral station
Say 5- 10 minutes from Bus (or parked car- a no no) to platform
(a longer walk)
Say a 1-15 minute wait for a train
Say 5 to 15 minutes as all trains northboard from Mineral go through Broadway
Say 22-27 minutes from Mineral to LODO light rail
Say 10 minutes to exit train and walk via Underground to commuter rail
Say 15 minutes (optimal) for train, then boarding
Say 35 minutes to DIA

________________
111- 146 minutes

This is generally my route, so let me clean it up, make it a little more realistic. This is for me, from Englewood.

5 minute drive to station.
1 minute walk to platform.
7.5 minute average wait.
10 ride to Broadway.
5 minute (maximum) wait for transfer to Union Station - I do this a lot, it's never a long wait.
12 minute ride to Union Station.
5 minute walk to transfer.
7.5 minute average transfer wait.
34 minute ride to DIA.

Total time from my door (yes, assuming park-n-ride) to DIA is 87 minutes - roughly an hour and a half.

That's about what I would expect... double the typical drive time, excluding parking at DIA, which adds 30 minutes and significant cost. From downtown, of course, it's much much easier.

Now, I will say, if I wasn't driving to the park-n-ride it gets much worse. I do this sometimes... and the buses are terribly timed, so oftentimes it's faster to walk 30-35 minutes. In any case, add a full 30 to this (20 on a good day, but it's unpredictable) for a bus connection to the train.

So actually, Wizened is probably only exaggerating by about 15 minutes. I typically leave my house 1 hour 15 minutes before I want to be at DIA if I am parking there. With the train, I will probably leave 15 minutes later if I am driving to the station, 15 minutes earlier if I am talking a bus. And let's be honest, I don't live in the most-transit friendly corner of the City of Denver. My experience is probably typical of people who will live somewhat close to a Fastracks line, but not close enough to get to it conveniently without driving.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

So actually, Wizened is probably only exaggerating by about 15 minutes. I typically leave my house 1 hour 15 minutes before I want to be at DIA if I am parking there. With the train, I will probably leave 15 minutes later if I am driving to the station, 15 minutes earlier if I am talking a bus. And let's be honest, I don't live in the most-transit friendly corner of the City of Denver. My experience is probably typical of people who will live somewhat close to a Fastracks line, but not close enough to get to it conveniently without driving.

The crux of Wizened lamentations about FasTracks is this: He wants intra-city rail service service times and convenience out of a commuter hub-and-spoke system. Which is simply not going to happen given what FasTracks was envisioned as, what it was designed for, and the reasonable sort of land-use changes that can be expected to happen over the next 30-40 years in the suburbs which are still going to be require a car to get around. It just may be that the lower classes will be selling a kidney or two to afford that car.

It's perfectly acceptable on the Airport line to be designed for 79mph max considering the distance of the line and the relatively minor cost of adding station bypass tracks to allow for express trains. Doing so could probably bring the average travel speed up to 60mph and shave 10 or so minutes off the trip.

[EngiNerd]

Originally Posted by SnyderBock

Yes, it would likely mean a 2017 completion target. Too early to know details though. Kiewit is known for Design-Build, where they start construction before 100% design is completed, in order to condense construction schedule and shave 1-2 years off the timeline and also get it done cheaper than competition bids.

Other companies/conglomerations will know this. So in the open bidding process, there will be steep competition on getting it constructed both faster and cheaper. I would guess all bids would have completion dates between 2016-18.

Just to clarify, Design-Build is not where construction starts before the design is 100% complete, that is actually called "Fast tracking" (no relation to the train). It does not have to be associated with Design-Build.

Design-build is when a project is led by the General Contractor, rather than the architect/engineer as is typical with design-bid-build. The GC is brought on board from the onset and then hires the design team, and this way the GC gets more involved with the design from a cost and constructability standpoint, as opposed to them just being brought on after the design is complete.

Design-build projects are not necessarily faster, but they do skip the bidding step, which can save time, and often times to integrate 'fast-tracking' construction techniques. Sorry, just a stickler on that stuff.

Are there still plans to have a stand alone parking structure for Union Station, or was that nixed when they decided it would be a security risk to build it over the tracks?

[mhays]

Any negotiated contract can bring the contractor on board early to provide input, not just the bid format. That would be a three-legged team with the owner in the lead equally over the contractor and designer, and everyone working together perhaps through the entire design process. That's typical in the private sector, and also common in some states under the public GC/CM format. Design-build combines the two into one contract, which is typically led by the contractor because only they (we) have the financial wherewithal (bonding capacity etc.).

Under the bid format, in the states I'm familiar with at least, the owner (not the designer) manages the contractor. Same three-legged stool. But with low-bid, the price is a surprise at the last minute (often +/- 10-25%), vs. a negotiated or design-build approach where fairly reliable estimating is happening along the way by the contractor.

Design-build also puts much of the price risk on the design-builder rather than the owner. Unforseen conditions can still be the owner's responsibility, but the cost of any missing design details or other certain forseeable elements will fall to the d-b. It also heavily incentivizes the team to think about ways to save money both during procurement (to win the job) and along the way (to make a profit, hopefully with clear basis of design / quality / schedule contractual requirements so the public gets what it bought).

Low-bid often gives projects to the contractor who interpreted the drawings and specs in the most lawyerly way, omitting as much scope as possible from the price, followed by arguing their way to change orders later, meaning a contentious process and a higher final price. The public sector is often forced to use this method, but the private sector has moved away from it.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by EngiNerd

JAre there still plans to have a stand alone parking structure for Union Station, or was that nixed when they decided it would be a security risk to build it over the tracks?

I'm almost 100% positive that it was nixed due to the cost of mitigating the security risk. I've read recently that DURA is looking at addressing the loss of the parking garage with another project since the loss of parking effects DT interests. I don't know what kind of scope this would be, but maybe it could see the revival of the parking garage over the tracks financed by DURA.