Easing Road Congestion in Downtown Vancouver

[Metro-One]

You claim to oppose this straw man: that everyone should take public transit. This is not a position that anyone serious holds. It's a delusion. You made it up. While I'm at it, stop opposing your other straw man: that most people will stop owning cars.

Obviously you have never seen RCC posts or heard any of the comments from those "Critical Mass" supporters. Or look at Hed Kandi's last post which is essentially that, punishing people who don't have a 9 to 5 job.

[Hed Kandi]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Obviously you have never seen RCC posts or heard any of the comments from those "Critical Mass" supporters. Or look at Hed Kandi's last post which is essentially that, punishing people who don't have a 9 to 5 job.

I never stated that I wished to punish those who weren't on a regular working schedule. Public transit should be running 24 hours a day to cater to all work types.

[cabotp]

Punishing people for owning a vehicle is the wrong thing to do. Hell they may own it and just park it hardly use it. Now even though they own a car other than a parking spot. It doesn't cause any pollution or impact congestion.

Transit needs to be more like able to the personal vehicle. Having it stuck in the same traffic does not make people want to use it. Which is why people like sky train as they know their daily commute is almost to the minute. I think every station other than the ones downtown should have a park and ride. When I used to work downtown. I would drive to Joyce station and park on one of the side roads. Of course now you can't because of the permit parking. If I'm going to go the surrey central I'll park at Metro town.

[Yume-sama]

Public transportation, with the exception of the Skytrain, would have to get a lot better for me to even consider using it to other parts of Metro Vancouver. I would never step foot on the cesspool that we call buses. They are slow, filthy, inconvenient. I would much rather take a taxi, if I had no car (which I don't, so that's what I do whenever I feel the urge to visit North Vancouver). Now, if we were to actually take care of public property, buses, and etc., had them clean, safe, and convenient... that would be another story. But, sorry, that won't be happening in my lifetime, anywhere in North America.

And I hate to keep bringing up Japan (though they are what we should all aspire to be like, public transportation wise) but have a look at their buses.



Nice, safe, clean, convenient, on time. And individual air conditioning controls. Granted, not all of the buses are like this... though they are all much better than the ones we have. And Tokyo really doesn't rely much on buses, other than trips to either Haneda or Narita Airport. Places like Kyoto, and Fukuoka however, do rely almost solely on buses. And they are a model of efficiency.

Buses here have a stigma that is hard to break, and are not something people generally would willingly take unless they had no other choice.

I've never seen someone happy to be on the bus, including the driver

[twoNeurons]

You can't double the price of gas. Where do you stop? Abbotsford? Aldergrove? Hope?

I remember in Abbotsford, people crossed the border just to get gas. You can incrementally increase the fee, but there's a breaking point as well before people start travelling outside the GVRD to fill up ( whether they're saving money or not )

[Yume-sama]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

You can't double the price of gas. Where do you stop? Abbotsford? Aldergrove? Hope?

I remember in Abbotsford, people crossed the border just to get gas. You can incrementally increase the fee, but there's a breaking point as well before people start travelling outside the GVRD to fill up ( whether they're saving money or not )

Yes, people in Calgary were driving 45 minutes across the city to save 3 cents on the Native reserves. Obviously, these people can not do math, and are not that smart... but, don't for a second not believe people won't drive half an hour away from the city to fill up if gas gets more expensive just in one part. That would be counterproductive on *so* many levels.

[cabotp]

Can't do anything to stop people from driving to abby to fuel up. Although that really is only cost effective for someone who lives in Langley. Kind of pointless for someone to drive from the Burrard Peninsula to Abby to fuel up. I know if I'm out that way I'll fuel up but i won't go out there just to fuel up.

As for the price of fuel. I can easily see it hitting or almost hitting $2.00/litre in the next 5-10 years. And I'm leaning more toward 5 years. So in effect it will almost double just by the basic supply and demand.

Also instead of charging a certain Cents / Litre on fuel. Why not change it to a percentage. Like the GST or new HST. so instead of $0.10/litre. Change it 10%. On a $1/litre that would be $0.10. But on $2/litre they would collect $0.20. The more expense fuel is the more they collect.

[Metro-One]

Thats one of the big things for me, is public transit has to CLEAN. Having a system clean makes it appear safe, if graffiti, broken glass, spills, garbage, etc... are cleaned up and replaced ASAP, it will attract many more people to the system. Unfortunately we live in a selfish society where everyone thinks they own the system and can do whatever they please to it, but this just means we have to counter the slobs and eventually the clean trend will catch on. I really wish there was more emphasize to teach manners in school and more punishment, such as "being put to work programs," for vandals and those who throw their garbage wherever they please.

There is a reason why the WCE attracts many white collar office workers, because the trains themselves are amazingly clean (no etched windows, no garbage on the floor, etc...). Although the stations definitely need some work.

I cringe every time I see one of our new buses drive by and all the back windows are etched to hell. Those windows should be replaced immediately and those caught etching the windows should be put to work for their local community to the price of replacing/fixing their vandalism.

[CBeats]

Originally Posted by Yume-sama

Places like Kyoto, and Fukuoka however, do rely almost solely on buses. And they are a model of efficiency.

They may be quite a few things, but they certainly don't look anything like that picture! When I was in Kyoto we used the bus to get everywhere, and although they were clean, they were very narrow, stuffy, and crammed with people. Most everyone uses the bus there, so I think the amount of people (a lot) on the buses were normal, but I much prefer our wide, spacious, half-empty (most of the time) buses, even if they are a little vandalized...

Not putting down your comment that cleaner is better or anything, it's just that my experience on buses in Kyoto shares little with what you described.

[Hed Kandi]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Thats one of the big things for me, is public transit has to CLEAN. Having a system clean makes it appear safe, if graffiti, broken glass, spills, garbage, etc... are cleaned up and replaced ASAP, it will attract many more people to the system. Unfortunately we live in a selfish society where everyone thinks they own the system and can do whatever they please to it, but this just means we have to counter the slobs and eventually the clean trend will catch on. I really wish there was more emphasize to teach manners in school and more punishment, such as "being put to work programs," for vandals and those who throw their garbage wherever they please.

There is a reason why the WCE attracts many white collar office workers, because the trains themselves are amazingly clean (no etched windows, no garbage on the floor, etc...). Although the stations definitely need some work.

I cringe every time I see one of our new buses drive by and all the back windows are etched to hell. Those windows should be replaced immediately and those caught etching the windows should be put to work for their local community to the price of replacing/fixing their vandalism.

I once caught this little punk writing all over the seats and windows of the bus with a permanent black marker. I could have killed him, but I decided to graciously inform the bus driver who in turn saw to simply kick him off the bus.

All in all, the little reject learned nothing. If it was up to me, I would have had Translink press charges and have him pay for the refinishing of the seat and replacement of the window.

[Yume-sama]

Originally Posted by CBeats

Not putting down your comment that cleaner is better or anything, it's just that my experience on buses in Kyoto shares little with what you described.

Yes, they are busy, as most public transportation is in Japan. However, it is busy with non-threatening schoolgirls in their uniforms.

Not... random drunks and homeless people. The buses also aren't vandalized and run down... and are able to keep to a schedule.

And the drivers generally don't seem bitter that they have to drive a bus, wearing their white gloves and uniforms

[DKaz]

A lot of the buses in Japan I've seen were older, they had the highway buses that commanded a bit of a premium much like our Trainbus service, but I dunno I really don't view our buses as dirty. Surrey might be the exception, and ValleyMAX's buses are just awful, but I dunno.

I really liked the old trolley buses, much more spacious, old, but generally they were pretty clean. The new trolley buses are nice and shiny but so cramped in comparison.

[Yume-sama]

And downtown it just seems silly that they have to stop every time they turn a corner because it falls off the wires.

[DKaz]

The new buses can run on auxilary battery power for quite a distance at a good speed, so they don't block up the intersections anymore. They can also cross intersections faster too.

[cabotp]

I don't find the busses to be all that bad in terms of cleanliness. Although some areas are worse than others due to the type of "clientèle" that they carry.

Can't do much about a bunch of uneducated idiots

But by and large a majority of the buses are clean, considering the amount of people that get on and off.

[trofirhen]

I hate to be a repetitive bore, but creating one or two downtown tunnels to take through-traffic out and under the streets of downtown would be one way of doing it.

Montreal does it with the Autoroute Ville Marie. London does it with the Piccadilly Tunnel. Paris does it big-time with several tunnels. So does Stockholm.

The resistance to this concept here in Vancouver is something I do not understand, unless of course it's the cost. It's expensive, of course, but worth the results.

[cabotp]

The resistance to this concept is an underground tunnel would turn into an expressway / freeway. And Vancouver does not want any freeways or expressways going through the downtown core or anywhere close to the downtown core. Even if it was underground. This is probably the biggest reasons why Vancouver ranks highly on the livability scale. We did something that bucked the trend of building massive freeways.

Hell there is a by-law in Vancouver created back in the late 70's that none of the roads will be widened. Other than to fix up intersections.

Going through downtown to get to the north-shore is the worst route you can take. Unless your starting point happens to be close to downtown or on the west side of Vancouver. Otherwise the 2nd narrow is quicker for almost anyone in East Vancouver.

[agrant]

Originally Posted by Dave2

Apparently this is a "Only in Vancouver" thing.... http://www.theprovince.com/They+alwa...198/story.html

I'm talking specifically about a total ban on any lane use for construction, which in itself could be a "Only in Vancouver" thing.

[agrant]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

I hate to be a repetitive bore, but creating one or two downtown tunnels to take through-traffic out and under the streets of downtown would be one way of doing it.

Montreal does it with the Autoroute Ville Marie. London does it with the Piccadilly Tunnel. Paris does it big-time with several tunnels. So does Stockholm.

The resistance to this concept here in Vancouver is something I do not understand, unless of course it's the cost. It's expensive, of course, but worth the results.

I've always hoped the Georgia and Dunsmuir viaduct would eventually be put under. Mostly for esthetic reasons though.

[agrant]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Almost all blocks in downtown have alleys. Trucks can use the allies.

OR, the developer can park their material trucks on their own property, not public land. They can easily use a corner of their own property they are building on to park their trucks that carry steel or concrete. After they are done they can cover that space with a little bit of grass or a plaza. Or they can build back from the street a few extra feet, which would result in them having parking space during construction and give us wider sidewalks when it's all over. Why do they have to cover every square inch of property with town houses and build so close to the sidewalk so that when its done there is no room for 2 people to pass each other?

There is no reason they have to park flatbeds in moving traffic lanes in the middle of rush hour. In parts I've seen them cut Seymour down to 1 lane!

It's abuse of public property for profit. It makes all our lives worse so a few snobs can have a fancy condo on a narrow sidewalk.

And @ Dave2, thanks for that link to the Province story, I'm glad I'm not the only one that realizes this.

http://www.theprovince.com/They+alwa...198/story.html

Hey, I agree. If they don't have to park there, then....