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  #21  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2009, 9:56 PM
Zassk Zassk is offline
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Originally Posted by quobobo View Post
Consider just giving people cash (tax refunds, lower taxes on the poor and middle class, whatever) and letting them decide what to do with it.
You could say the same about health care. But we all know a certain percentage of people will mismanage the money and end up disenfranchised anyway. This is the reason why we do not give people the option with health care. And the same argument can be said of roads. Yes, some people might make wise decisions if given money instead of free road access and transit, but some people (who need it most) will mismanage that money and end up being destitute and/or a burden on society. Do we leave them to suffer the consequences, as we might have done with healthcare, or do we take the option away and force them to pay for mobility through taxes? I would argue that the people most at risk of mismanaging their own money are the same people who most need access to mobility.
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  #22  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2009, 11:31 PM
quobobo quobobo is offline
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Originally Posted by Zassk View Post
You could say the same about health care. But we all know a certain percentage of people will mismanage the money and end up disenfranchised anyway. This is the reason why we do not give people the option with health care. And the same argument can be said of roads. Yes, some people might make wise decisions if given money instead of free road access and transit, but some people (who need it most) will mismanage that money and end up being destitute and/or a burden on society. Do we leave them to suffer the consequences, as we might have done with healthcare, or do we take the option away and force them to pay for mobility through taxes? I would argue that the people most at risk of mismanaging their own money are the same people who most need access to mobility.
You don't trust people to accurately judge their own need for transportation (something which is much, much more easily and intuitively predicted than need for health care)? That's patriarchal in a very creepy way.

Honestly, if you feel that way about access to roads I'm not sure where you'd stop.

Last edited by quobobo; Dec 18, 2009 at 12:13 AM.
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  #23  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2009, 12:26 AM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
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Honestly, if you feel that way about access to roads I'm not sure where you'd stop.
Pretty funny statement considering this is how roads are accessed in 100% of the world. Even places with some toll roads have free alternatives.
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  #24  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2009, 12:44 AM
quobobo quobobo is offline
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Was referring to the specific argument for free road access.

Also, I'm not really convinced by your 100% statistic. There's nowhere that pays for roads with a gas tax or something similar?
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  #25  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2009, 5:02 AM
Zassk Zassk is offline
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Gas is a 200 year transient phenomenon. Roads were crucial before we discovered fossil fuel, and they will be crucial long after it is gone. What will you tax when people go back to riding horses or vehicles run on some other unspecified energy source? They will still be vital to all of society, and it will still not make sense to pay for them on a user-pay basis.
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  #26  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2009, 6:51 AM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
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Originally Posted by quobobo View Post
Was referring to the specific argument for free road access.

Also, I'm not really convinced by your 100% statistic. There's nowhere that pays for roads with a gas tax or something similar?
Feel free to dig something up. We certainly have toll roads, but show me something 100% built and maintained by a tax on the people who use it.

That's part of the whole argument though, everybody derives a benefit from the roads, not just those who are driving SOVs on it.
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  #27  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2009, 6:52 AM
quobobo quobobo is offline
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Originally Posted by Zassk View Post
What will you tax when people go back to riding horses or vehicles run on some other unspecified energy source?
Right, let's base our current tax policy on events that haven't happened yet.

If that happens, it would make sense to reevaluate the tax and determine whether another method of collecting user fees would be efficient enough. But until then...
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  #28  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2009, 9:37 AM
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The thing with using user fees and not general taxes, is it is not proportional.

If you were to charge road tolls, and lower taxes, it would benefit the wealthy and harm the poor.

Taxes are a % of income, so if you lower taxes, wealthy people get to save more $$$ than lower class people. Then it will turn out that the $$$ that the rich get back will more than pay for their road use (they'll have money from their savings left over after spending it on road tolls) and the poor will not get enough $$$ rebates to cover their toll expenses. In the end the poor will be more poor.

So yes, it is a redistribution of wealth. But it's more than that. It's not taking money and giving it to the poor. It is taking money from the people who are fortunate, and use the wealth and power of the people to get that money, then spend it on something we all use. We all benefit from roads, directly or indirectly, everything we do, we can do because of roads.

It's the same with the parking tax. 35% tax on $200 a month for parking isn't that much of a deal to someone who can afford it. But it harms the people who can't afford it, but need to do it. High taxes and tolls on road use are just social engineering exercises that turn the freedom of driving into a pastime for the privileged, and force those who aren't into paying more than they can afford or forcing them to change their established lifestyle (essentially robbing freewill in the name of environmentalism).

Quote:
Consider just giving people cash (tax refunds, lower taxes on the poor and middle class, whatever) and letting them decide what to do with it.

Seriously, if you're barely scraping by and might not be able to pay rent, what would you prefer?

1) Road access or a bus pass paid for by the state

2) An equivalent amount of cash to spend on whatever you see fit: food, rent, tuition, or maybe even road access

If you actually want to help people you'll choose 2.
No, I wouldn't chose 2. I'm not saying people wouldn't know what to do with their own money. I believe that most people are smart enough to spend money appropriately.

I'm saying that people in need, if they were taxed 0% and had to pay user fees, would be worse off than they are now and paying tax.

Then where do we draw the line?
  • Pay for medical services you can afford?
  • Full tuition for K-12 education?
  • Optional sewage hookup and garbage collection (you all know that if you had to pay a direct fee for garbage pickup you would all walk down to the nearest empty lot and throw your trash in there)?
  • Security fees if you want the police to offer you assitance (and have your family pay the fees and court costs if they want your murder solved, hey, maybe it's not a big deal to them and they can save a few bucks)?

That's a bit sarcastic, but comeon, how are roads, a major pillar of our economy and society, different than any of the other services provided by the government I mentioned?

The wealthy can afford to pay for what they need in life. That's why they are wealthy. They can even amass wealth after paying taxes. So without taxes they could pay any userfee for any of the things I listed and still accumulate wealth. That's why tax is a %, and not a flat fee.

But a person with a limited income isn't going to feel a tax rebate. Sure, they can probably buy a warm coat or something, but it would not be enough to pay for the user fees they would need to pay for services they require.

We have been lowering taxes and decreasing services (especially in the United States) and the gap between the wealthy and the poor is getting wider and wider. It's because we are making the poor pay for the privilege of generating the wealth for the rich.


And believe me, I'm no communist, there just needs to be proper balance, and shifting the burden of paying for our economy onto the backs of the poor is not balance, it's theft.
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  #29  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2009, 6:10 PM
twoNeurons twoNeurons is offline
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There's wisdom in them thar words.

I will say one thing. Most of those I know who have paid-for parking downtown are either managers or executives... so parking costs don't affect them.

Another thing... different scenario...

I was at Costco the other day and was chatting with the food sample lady.

She said they get paid 8.25$/hour.

Standing for 7 hours dealing with greedy customers, getting paid, for all intents and purposes minimum wage ( I thought NO ONE gets minimum wage in Vancouver ) doesn't sound too nice to me.

I hate it when people say: "No one makes minimum wage anyhow, so why should we raise the minimum wage? It will just makes things more expensive for the poor!"

What doesn't make sense to me is that the things that will be made more expensive are things like restaurants and service based industries. Businesses who spend a larger proportion of their net income on low-wage salaries. Many of these establishments aren't used much by the poor.

Most of the walmart-type inexpensive goods that are bought by the poor are imported from China anyway, not affected as much by a minimum wage hike.

Perhaps I'm being dense... but hey, raise the minimum wage to $10 and raise prices. What's the big deal? The wealthy generally consume more anyhow, so it's not as if the price increases will swallow the pay raise.
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  #30  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2009, 6:25 PM
Zassk Zassk is offline
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^ That's a separate issue worth its own thread, but to be brief, not all jobs are (or should be) designed to support a family of four. Some jobs should pay less and require less qualifications, for the sake of young people entering the work force. Those Costco food court jobs should be $8.25 - and they should be populated by young people on their first job, just like at McDonald's, rather than by 40 year olds trying to feed a household.
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  #31  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2009, 7:53 PM
twoNeurons twoNeurons is offline
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Originally Posted by Zassk View Post
Those Costco food court jobs should be $8.25 - and they should be populated by young people on their first job, just like at McDonald's, rather than by 40 year olds trying to feed a household.
And yet... they're not. Why?

Last edited by twoNeurons; Dec 18, 2009 at 8:58 PM.
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  #32  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2009, 10:00 PM
deasine deasine is offline
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Let's just get back on topic guys.
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  #33  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2009, 11:09 PM
quobobo quobobo is offline
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Originally Posted by BCPhil View Post
The thing with using user fees and not general taxes, is it is not proportional.

If you were to charge road tolls, and lower taxes, it would benefit the wealthy and harm the poor.
We've been over this. You think it's regressive, I get that. I think it's much more efficient even if it is regressive, and the answer is to implement it and redistribute in other ways.

I don't think you're even reading my posts. Here's what I said earlier: "Your main argument seems to be that user fees for roads are regressive. If they are, that doesn't mean they're inherently bad - just that you should probably compensate for them by using the revenue to lower other regressive taxes."

Quote:
Then where do we draw the line?
  • Pay for medical services you can afford?
  • Full tuition for K-12 education?
  • Optional sewage hookup and garbage collection (you all know that if you had to pay a direct fee for garbage pickup you would all walk down to the nearest empty lot and throw your trash in there)?
  • Security fees if you want the police to offer you assitance (and have your family pay the fees and court costs if they want your murder solved, hey, maybe it's not a big deal to them and they can save a few bucks)?


That's a bit sarcastic, but comeon, how are roads, a major pillar of our economy and society, different than any of the other services provided by the government I mentioned?
...you just explained why garbage collection might be different, then proceeded to ask me why it's different.

PM me if you really want me to go over the others, but in the meantime I'll link you to this and this. Please, at least read through an economics textbook before the next time you vote in any election.
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  #34  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2009, 11:33 PM
racc racc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BCPhil View Post
The thing with using user fees and not general taxes, is it is not proportional.

If you were to charge road tolls, and lower taxes, it would benefit the wealthy and harm the poor.

Taxes are a % of income, so if you lower taxes, wealthy people get to save more $$$ than lower class people. Then it will turn out that the $$$ that the rich get back will more than pay for their road use (they'll have money from their savings left over after spending it on road tolls) and the poor will not get enough $$$ rebates to cover their toll expenses. In the end the poor will be more poor.

So yes, it is a redistribution of wealth. But it's more than that. It's not taking money and giving it to the poor. It is taking money from the people who are fortunate, and use the wealth and power of the people to get that money, then spend it on something we all use. We all benefit from roads, directly or indirectly, everything we do, we can do because of roads.

It's the same with the parking tax. 35% tax on $200 a month for parking isn't that much of a deal to someone who can afford it. But it harms the people who can't afford it, but need to do it. High taxes and tolls on road use are just social engineering exercises that turn the freedom of driving into a pastime for the privileged, and force those who aren't into paying more than they can afford or forcing them to change their established lifestyle (essentially robbing freewill in the name of environmentalism).

No, I wouldn't chose 2. I'm not saying people wouldn't know what to do with their own money. I believe that most people are smart enough to spend money appropriately.

And believe me, I'm no communist, there just needs to be proper balance, and shifting the burden of paying for our economy onto the backs of the poor is not balance, it's theft.
Oh, please. The poor can't afford to drive anyway. The are taking public transit, walking or cycling already. If revenue from road pricing is used to improve transit and cycling, then the poor benefit. Food and housing are more essential for life anyway. Yet we have people pay for both. It is bizarre that the use of roads is free in a free market economy. The poor are also likely to live near busy roads and thus suffer the health effects of pollution. Reducing driving and thus pollution through road pricing would benefit these people.

There are much better ways to address poverty and income imbalance than to continue to continue to distort the transportation market by continuing have roads free.
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  #35  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2009, 12:08 AM
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Alex Mackinnon Alex Mackinnon is online now
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Originally Posted by racc View Post
Oh, please. The poor can't afford to drive anyway. The are taking public transit, walking or cycling already. If revenue from road pricing is used to improve transit and cycling, then the poor benefit. Food and housing are more essential for life anyway. Yet we have people pay for both. It is bizarre that the use of roads is free in a free market economy. The poor are also likely to live near busy roads and thus suffer the health effects of pollution. Reducing driving and thus pollution through road pricing would benefit these people.

There are much better ways to address poverty and income imbalance than to continue to continue to distort the transportation market by continuing have roads free.
The pollution point is pretty backasswards though. Sure some social housing housing larger roads, and some property values are lower, but people still pay big money to live in busy areas. Look at anywhere downtown. The vast majority of air pollution from cars rises quickly anyways, then balls back in a blanket effect. The biggest reason why for having lower property values is simply noise pollution. Doesn't seem like a huge deal to me.

If I can afford to have a car and a motorcycle while living on under $20000/yr and going to school full time (so subract $7000 from my income) it's definitely not that that expensive to have a car. If you already have a beater anyways.
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  #36  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2009, 12:57 AM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
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Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon View Post
The pollution point is pretty backasswards though. Sure some social housing housing larger roads, and some property values are lower, but people still pay big money to live in busy areas. Look at anywhere downtown. The vast majority of air pollution from cars rises quickly anyways, then balls back in a blanket effect. The biggest reason why for having lower property values is simply noise pollution. Doesn't seem like a huge deal to me.

If I can afford to have a car and a motorcycle while living on under $20000/yr and going to school full time (so subract $7000 from my income) it's definitely not that that expensive to have a car. If you already have a beater anyways.
Yep. It's the working family of 4 making $40k/yr that is getting hammered by road tolling and high insurance costs. Not the people on welfare, disability, etc.
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  #37  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2009, 1:34 AM
Zassk Zassk is offline
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Food and housing are more essential for life anyway. Yet we have people pay for both.
They pay part of the cost of their food and goods, not the entire cost. The transportation of those goods is heavily subsidized by free roads. Do we want to download that to the poor via user fees? Surely not. Let the wealthier members of society pay for the movement through disproportionate taxes.
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  #38  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2010, 12:57 AM
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VANCOUVER (NEWS1130) - The business community has its back up over a tripled provincial sales tax slapped onto pay parking around Metro Vancouver as of January 1st. Today the well-organized group is firing back at local parkades.

The first thing drivers see as they enter many downtown parkades is a sign explaining why the price of parking went up as of Monday. Today members of an upset business community intend to greet drivers at many parking lot entrances around Metro Vancouver with brochures, signs and even cell phones dialed into the offices of elected representatives. The beef is over the PST as it applies to pay parking. It jumped from seven to twenty-one per cent January 1st. The change is imposed by TransLink as that organization tries to balance the books.

Companies owning and managing many of the city's parking lots are also upset over having to pass such an increase to customers.

You can find out more about the campaign at Driveoutthetax.com

http://www.news1130.com/news/local/a...ness-community
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  #39  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2010, 1:03 AM
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EasyPark at Pacific Centre has increased its evening and weekend flat rate from $4.00 to $6.00, which seems excessive.
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  #40  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2010, 1:14 AM
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Still cheap compared to other cities in Canada. Though, I'm used to the exorbitant rates of parking in Downtown Calgary

Event parking at GM / BC Place is also cheaper than for the Calgary Flames. Go figure.
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