Sen̓áḵw (Squamish Nation) | 11 Towers | 171m | 58fl | U/C

[phesto]

I've heard grumblings that the initial concept plans proposed by Westbank anticipate at least one tower with substantial height.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Vin

You just agreed that it's underbuilt. It should have been fantastic since 9 years ago.

It has taken that long to build out, and is still ongoing.

[rofina]

Originally Posted by Vin

You just agreed that it's underbuilt. It should have been fantastic since 9 years ago.

No. Its fantastic precisely because of its scale and density. Its also taken years to fill up with people, it wasn't exactly successful selling out of the gate.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Vin

(1)I don't see how it's a complete opposite. What does keeping the viaducts have to do with increasing transit services? The viaducts are perfect for dedicated bus lanes yo.

I don't get you at all.

(2) FYI, Surrey isn't Vancouver ok? And now many does Marine Drive get? 1 new route?

(3) And pray tell us why a highrise neighbourhood is "unsustainable", as opposed to a huge vacant lot overgrown with weed and brush? Please don't throw words around without defining what you mean.

On page 1, AVLW wanted 8,000-10,000 units: mid/highrises instead of low/midrises, and twice as many residents as the 2010 plan. I said that the road and transit capacity wasn't enough to support that, that Burrard Bridge would likely be choked, and that the old OV-sized plan would be more manageable.

You said that most new residents would opt to take the bus or walk or carpool instead, and traffic would be fine. You argued the exact opposite just a few weeks ago, and consistently for the 5+ years preceding that, despite a similar level of density in NEFC. Why the sudden change of heart?

Ambulances can't go on the viaducts, so buses definitely shouldn't either.

Surrey is Metro Vancouver, which lacks a comprehensive bus grid and so needs better routes. Vancouver itself already has one and so does not.

Originally Posted by Vin

You just agreed that it's underbuilt. It should have been fantastic since 9 years ago.

..... It was fredinno that said it was underbuilt. You're replying to rofina.

[officedweller]

I think the only view cone that might impact the site is the Granville Street view cone:

https://vancouver.ca/home-property-d...cted-view.aspx


https://vancouver.ca/home-property-d...cted-view.aspx

The site is substantially west of the QE Park view cone:


https://vancouver.ca/home-property-d...cted-view.aspx

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Am I the only one who wanted to see the Molson stay there? It is kind of an icon in the area (even if built on the former reserve lands).

I don't think anyone expected Molson to get up and leave the site to Concord; honestly, I didn't.

I mean, if the Squamish get a similar sort of treaty deal to the Tsawwassen, they could theoretically buy out nearby lots and add it to their lands. The Parkview Towers, for example, or parks of False Creek South (once the leases expire). Say, an agreement is signed where those government-owned lands (I think Parkview is owned by the city?) are given preferential treatment over their eventual sale to the Squamish (over private developers).

Ditto to a Squamish buyout, but AFAIK large factories don't really lend themselves well toward other uses. At least not without gutting the entire thing and leaving just the facade.

Originally Posted by officedweller

I think the only view cone that might impact the site is the Granville Street view cone:

https://vancouver.ca/home-property-d...cted-view.aspx

https://vancouver.ca/home-property-d...cted-view.aspx

The site is substantially west of the QE Park view cone:

https://vancouver.ca/home-property-d...cted-view.aspx

And there's not much to obstruct. For reference, the tallest proposed tower is twice as high as the Molson sign or the brick apartments in the middle.

[retro_orange]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Am I the only one who wanted to see the Molson stay there? It is kind of an icon in the area (even if built on the former reserve lands).

I don't think anyone expected Molson to get up and leave the site to Concord; honestly, I didn't.

I mean, if the Squamish get a similar sort of treaty deal to the Tsawwassen, they could theoretically buy out nearby lots and add it to their lands. The Parkview Towers, for example, or parks of False Creek South (once the leases expire). Say, an agreement is signed where those government-owned lands (I think Parkview is owned by the city?) are given preferential treatment over their eventual sale to the Squamish (over private developers).
.

The brewery takes up a huge chunk of land that could be freed up for people who can afford the area and work nearby downtown. I doubt any brewery worker can afford to live anywhere near where the brewery currently is. Reducing travel times for all workers in the end. The way things are going concord won't have any foreign investors to sell overpriced condos to by the time the brewery is gone so hopefully they won't be too expensive or a large chunk of the redevelopment being rental. The actual brewery doesn't have any redeeming architectural or historical features, it was built in 1953 as Sick's Capilano Brewery and taken over by Molson in 1958 and a very basic looking structure.


I hope Parkview towers is never demolished as that is a beautiful international modern building and unusual for it's size and shape in Vancouver. Designed by Peter Kaffka.



https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/2...eather-beacon/

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by retro_orange

The brewery takes up a huge chunk of land that could be freed up for people who can afford the area and work nearby downtown. I doubt any brewery worker can afford to live anywhere near where the brewery currently is. Reducing travel times for all workers in the end. The way things are going concord won't have any foreign investors to sell overpriced condos to by the time the brewery is gone so hopefully they won't be too expensive or a large chunk of the redevelopment being rental. The actual brewery doesn't have any redeeming architectural or historical features, it was built in 1953 as Sick's Capilano Brewery and taken over by Molson in 1958 and a very basic looking structure.

The architects could keep the entrance and parts of the wall - it's a good mural space, if nothing else.


(Vancouver Sun)

[rxp]

thought they said the city cant get involved?

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by rofina

I dont know if I agree.

OV has turned into a brilliant hood, with a nice human scale. I think its turned out fantastic 9 years on.

Originally Posted by rofina

No. Its fantastic precisely because of its scale and density. Its also taken years to fill up with people, it wasn't exactly successful selling out of the gate.

I never argued if OV was good or bad. I said it was underbuilt, which compared to the towers on the opposite site of False Creek, it kind of is. Honestly, it seems height-limited, designed to get the most density out of a single site, while staying under a height limit, like Richmond. The only viewcone on this site is the QE Park, which makes me wonder why. The newer sections of the village, developed after the Olympics are also taller, which kind of shows my entire point about it being underbuilt.

Demand was not good in the early years, but also likely due to the drama surrounding the project. Image matters in RE projects. Not to mention, the original segment started selling during a recession.

Originally Posted by phesto

I've heard grumblings that the initial concept plans proposed by Westbank anticipate at least one tower with substantial height.

Isn't that basically the original plans?

Also, already? Is Westbank even confirmed?

Originally Posted by officedweller

I think the only view cone that might impact the site is the Granville Street view cone:

https://vancouver.ca/home-property-d...cted-view.aspx


https://vancouver.ca/home-property-d...cted-view.aspx

The site is substantially west of the QE Park view cone:


https://vancouver.ca/home-property-d...cted-view.aspx

Thanks. Do you know the height limits on the sites at about the locations of Molson and the Squamish Bridge Lands? I tried using the city's site, but it never works.

Originally Posted by rxp

thought they said the city cant get involved?

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Ditto to a Squamish buyout, but AFAIK large factories don't really lend themselves well toward other uses. At least not without gutting the entire thing and leaving just the facade.



And there's not much to obstruct. For reference, the tallest proposed tower is twice as high as the brick apartments in the middle.

Uhh, I don't know why, but your link doesn't seem to work...

Also, of the 11.15acre Molson site, 4.64 acres is office space and parking, and 2.47 acres is taken up by the trucking and logistics area (and 0.41 acres by the brewery's tanks.) The Molson factory itself could be preserved as a warehousing or creative industrial space (or a Costco ), with Concord developing only the less valuable backlot of the Molson site in exchange for extra density and viewcone penetration. Warehousing would require Concord build on stilts on the trucking and logistics area, though.

Originally Posted by retro_orange

The brewery takes up a huge chunk of land that could be freed up for people who can afford the area and work nearby downtown. I doubt any brewery worker can afford to live anywhere near where the brewery currently is. Reducing travel times for all workers in the end. The way things are going concord won't have any foreign investors to sell overpriced condos to by the time the brewery is gone so hopefully they won't be too expensive or a large chunk of the redevelopment being rental. The actual brewery doesn't have any redeeming architectural or historical features, it was built in 1953 as Sick's Capilano Brewery and taken over by Molson in 1958 and a very basic looking structure.


I hope Parkview towers is never demolished as that is a beautiful international modern building and unusual for it's size and shape in Vancouver. Designed by Peter Kaffka.



https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/2...eather-beacon/

Except Vancouver industrial lease rates are literally the highest in Canada right now due to lack of available room, while the current supply continues to erode because condos are more profitable. https://biv.com/article/2019/04/wtf-...wqTQNhc71ysKPE

A new brewery is probably not coming back, but there's still tons of other industrial uses possible, especially on a site with such huge floorplates and right next to Downtown. By your logic, the Flats should be converted into rental apartments.

Also, Concord is almost certainly playing the long game. They have to go through the COV rezoning process, AND the Metro Vancouver RGS rezoning process (the latter which is actually intended (though kind of unsuccessful so far) to protect industrial land stock.). It hasn't shown progress on either front (yet).

Hopefully it gets mixed-industrial zoning (when Concord finally decides to start the rezoning process, that is). This would pretty much force them to preserve some industrial uses (and thus likely the brewery structure).

There's all of Fairview from 6th to 16th Ave to develop into rental, not to mention South False Creek.


I'm honestly not a huge architectural geek, but I never really cared much about Parkview. Though, on the other hand, most of Parkview is well...a park (technically private grassy fields and a parking lot), so there's still significant redevelopment potential.

Molson may be a simple structure, but it's still one of the most well known and iconic structures in the area aside from the Seaforth Armory.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Thanks. Do you know the height limits on the sites at about the locations of Molson and the Squamish Bridge Lands? I tried using the city's site, but it never works.

Check the Burrard Slopes Guidelines:

https://guidelines.vancouver.ca/B019.pdf


And it appears that I missed a Burrard Street view cone, but it stops at 1st Ave.
(which is bizarre (i.e. cant build a wall close up but you can build one farther away):


https://guidelines.vancouver.ca/B015.pdf

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by rxp

thought they said the city cant get involved?

What'll likely happen is that City Hall and residents will be free to offer suggestions... and the Squamish band will be free to completely ignore them.

Originally Posted by fredinno

Uhh, I don't know why, but your link doesn't seem to work.

---

Except Vancouver industrial lease rates are literally the highest in Canada right now due to lack of available room, while the current supply continues to erode because condos are more profitable. https://biv.com/article/2019/04/wtf-...wqTQNhc71ysKPE...

... Hopefully it gets mixed-industrial zoning (when Concord finally decides to start the rezoning process, that is). This would pretty much force them to preserve some industrial uses (and thus likely the brewery structure).

Fixed.

Well, that's urbanization in general - heavy industry and its blue collars move out to the suburbs for various reasons and leave a giant blob of white collars and execs. Any kind of industrial taking over would likely be white collar too, like a studio or startup, and would probably find it more useful to gut most of Molson and just keep the exterior. Unless, of course, ILM or Weta's suddenly decided that they need a few mocap rooms in Vancouver.

[rxp]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

What'll likely happen is that City Hall and residents will be free to offer suggestions... and the Squamish band will be free to completely ignore them.

so therefore, try to build a massive tall building there... i think it is possible. 3000 units is a lot in that area?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by rxp

so therefore, try to build a massive tall building there... i think it is possible. 3000 units is a lot in that area?

Yup, it's a lot.



Assuming the Burrard Slopes cone doesn't block it (thanks officedweller), I think they could get away with one tall boi - Marine Gateway has about 400-500 units.

[Feathered Friend]

To be clear, while the city has hopes the Squamish will engage as "good neighbours," as one source recently told me, "we're a city of reconciliation, no one will do anything to jeopardize that message."

In short, there is very little chance the city will oppose any development that is proposed.

[s211]

Originally Posted by Feathered Friend

"we're a city of reconciliation, no one will do anything to jeopardize that message."

In short, there is very little chance the city will oppose any development that is proposed.

Well, to me reconciliation is a two-way street and not an opportunity for the aggrieved party do whatever they want while the other party just puts on a brave face and folds their cards.

[retro_orange]

Originally Posted by s211

Well, to me reconciliation is a two-way street and not an opportunity for the aggrieved party do whatever they want while the other party just puts on a brave face and folds their cards.

Lol, the 'other party' has played all their cards for the past 150years without including any other parties in the game.

[Migrant_Coconut]

And the probable name is spell-able with only six English letters, so even that is a moot point.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Check the Burrard Slopes Guidelines:

https://guidelines.vancouver.ca/B019.pdf


And it appears that I missed a Burrard Street view cone, but it stops at 1st Ave.
(which is bizarre (i.e. cant build a wall close up but you can build one farther away):


https://guidelines.vancouver.ca/B015.pdf

Thanks, but that doesn't say anything about available approximate heights.

There was an asterisk, which was rezoning. Kits already banned high-rises, so the chance of them actually needing to do a viewcone review there was minimal. The only other things there were S. False Creek (unlikely to be redeveloped until the leases expire), the railway ROW, and Molson, all of which need rezoning to have an effect o the viewcones (I guess minus the reserve lands ). Hence, the exception would be reviewed in case of a rezoning.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

What'll likely happen is that City Hall and residents will be free to offer suggestions... and the Squamish band will be free to completely ignore them.



Fixed.

Well, that's urbanization in general - heavy industry and its blue collars move out to the suburbs for various reasons and leave a giant blob of white collars and execs. Any kind of industrial taking over would likely be white collar too, like a studio or startup, and would probably find it more useful to gut most of Molson and just keep the exterior. Unless, of course, ILM or Weta's suddenly decided that they need a few mocap rooms in Vancouver.

TBF, there doesn't seem to much to save views of even on Burrard and 10th or Burrard and 8th's view cones, but that might just be google map views playing with me. (probably a better vantage point)

Yeah that's more or less what I said. Yaletown and False Creek had long since passed their glory days in 1986. It's only within the 21st century that every single parcel of industrial land has become so valuable in Vancouver due to the inability for industry to sprawl 'out' much anymore.

Metro Vancouver as a whole's industrial space is mostly light industry, ports, and warehousing. Most of the heavy industry moved out of the metro area entirely, not just Vancouver city.

Originally Posted by s211

Well, to me reconciliation is a two-way street and not an opportunity for the aggrieved party do whatever they want while the other party just puts on a brave face and folds their cards.

Yeah that. Which is why too much view blockage isn't a good idea. However, officedweller's image seems to show that it won't be a big deal to put a 40+ story tower, especially if located on the East side of the bridge.


I don't know if 5000-3000 units of rentals and minor view blockage is going to be worse for NIMBYs than the TFN Tsawwassen Mills mall (bonus points for the latter being against the urbanist goals of Metro Van )

[jlousa]

I believe the Squamish nation will play nicely with the city and I'm equally sure the city will be extremely favourable with them. At the end of the day they will be tieing into metro Vancouvers water and sewer lines and the city's road network so they can't just do as they please. The Squamish nation is quite successful and will play their cards accordingly.