Kanata LRT EA - Bayshore to Palladium

[vtecyo]

Originally Posted by AuxTown

Unfortunately, it would be plain stupid to build stage 3 until it is 100% clear where the Senators are going to end up and it is also 100% clear what will happen with the CTC. I would think the route past Kanata Station could completely change depending on what happens with CTC and surroundings. Is there still room to change?

Assuming they move downtown - then the current CTC property becomes a huge TOD opportunity. I'd hope whatever route it's ends up running along goes right through the current parking lot - and it ends up turning into a real town centre type development - unlike the Kanata Centrum mall.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by vtecyo

Assuming they move downtown - then the current CTC property becomes a huge TOD opportunity. I'd hope whatever route it's ends up running along goes right through the current parking lot - and it ends up turning into a real town centre type development - unlike the Kanata Centrum mall.

If they move downtown, all plans to extend beyond Terry Fox should be scrapped (possibly bringing back the plan for BRT). If they need additional parking, a multistory garage can be built at Terry Fox.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by vtecyo

Assuming they move downtown - then the current CTC property becomes a huge TOD opportunity. I'd hope whatever route it's ends up running along goes right through the current parking lot - and it ends up turning into a real town centre type development - unlike the Kanata Centrum mall.

That's my thinking as well; depending on the plans for the CTC, rail might be even more justified.

[barbicels]

Originally Posted by TransitZilla

Disagree on this one. LRT to Kanata will result in a new station at March/Eagleson that will create a new bus transfer hub in Kanata that does not currently exist.

A transit trip from, say, Stittsville to Kanata North is very difficult today because buses to Kanata North don't connect at Eagleson- they are only available on the other side of the highway.

Elsewhere in this forum, I posted this design for an integrated bus/LRT/arterial/417 hub and double Park and Ride at the Eagleson interchange, which is relevant to this thread. It’s very ambitious (read: “future-ready”), unlike the cramped mess that the City is proposing for Stage 3. Happy to hear your thoughts on it.

March/Eagleson —> https://1drv.ms/b/s!Ahw8X47F_UFUipVjRj14DVeNQ3_uGQ

March/Teron —> https://1drv.ms/b/s!Ahw8X47F_UFUjc42op1mf9dDxCn_-A

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by barbicels

Elsewhere in this forum, I posted this design for an integrated bus/LRT/arterial/417 hub and double Park and Ride at the Eagleson interchange, which is relevant to this thread. It’s very ambitious (read: “future-ready”), unlike the cramped mess that the City is proposing for Stage 3. Happy to hear your thoughts on it.

March/Eagleson —> https://1drv.ms/b/s!Ahw8X47F_UFUipVjRj14DVeNQ3_uGQ

March/Teron —> https://1drv.ms/b/s!Ahw8X47F_UFUjc42op1mf9dDxCn_-A

Is the loop from March Road SB to 417 EB gone?
That’s gonna upset everybody in Beaverbrook.

[barbicels]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Is the loop from March Road SB to 417 EB gone?
That’s gonna upset everybody in Beaverbrook.

The SB->EB loop ramp is replaced by a two-lane ramp branching off SB March before Campeau that passes under both roads and connects to the eastern bridge complex. This new arrangement avoids all left-turn movements from the southbound roadway except at the new PnR access north of Corkstown. It also gives traffic from all directions access to the EB HOV lane, which is lacking today.

There was an Ontario MoT proposal years ago to build a flyover for SB->EB traffic to avoid having to widen the bridge over the 417. This is just another way to do that, while also streamlining the flow of 417-bound traffic from EB Campeau, which is much larger than when the interchange was designed. (A bit like how Beaverbrook traffic used to flow from 1974 until when the 417 was extended beyond Eagleson.)

An important part of the proposal is the recovery of ramp lands on the south side of the interchange, which could be sold/leased for TOD to defray costs.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by barbicels

Elsewhere in this forum, I posted this design for an integrated bus/LRT/arterial/417 hub and double Park and Ride at the Eagleson interchange, which is relevant to this thread. It’s very ambitious (read: “future-ready”), unlike the cramped mess that the City is proposing for Stage 3. Happy to hear your thoughts on it.

March/Eagleson —> https://1drv.ms/b/s!Ahw8X47F_UFUipVjRj14DVeNQ3_uGQ

March/Teron —> https://1drv.ms/b/s!Ahw8X47F_UFUjc42op1mf9dDxCn_-A

The March/Eagleson solution seems overly complicated to me. All of those overpasses will add to the cost significantly.

I would lean towards a diverging diamond interchange (DDI). The main criticism for DDIs is that they are hostile to pedestrians and cyclists (though in fairness, all interchange designs are hostile to pedestrians and cyclists). In this case though, March & Eagleson Roads are high speed highways, and as such are already extremely hostile to pedestrians and cyclists in the first place, so most pedestrians and cyclists would divert to the pedestrian overpass 1km west. A DDI would likely reduce the number of grade separations required for the O-Train, reducing the cost significantly.

As I have mentioned before, I would rather see the Eagleson Park & Ride Lots removed by building a multistory garage at Terry Fox Station. The western lot could be developed and the eastern lot could be given to the OPP in exchange for their building adjacent to the new Eagleson station, as the new location would give them even easier access to the 417. The land received from the OPP could be used to build a bus loop (and a small kiss and ride with some bicycle parking) adjacent to the station. The money saved from a simpler Eagleson Station design as well as the money earned from developing the one P&R lot, would go a long ways towards building a parking garage at Terry Fox.

[Dengler Avenue]

If pedestrians and cyclists need to access the overpass 1 km west, we may as well build the Kanata “Centre” Station at that point. While we’re at it, why not end the LRT at Terry Fox (Centrum)?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

If pedestrians and cyclists need to access the overpass 1 km west, we may as well build the Kanata “Centre” Station at that point. While we’re at it, why not end the LRT at Terry Fox (Centrum)?

That would be the plan. Since all of the overpasses have been built between Eagleson and Terry Fox, the incremental cost of the extension would be negligible.

[barbicels]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The March/Eagleson solution seems overly complicated to me. All of those overpasses will add to the cost significantly.

Very complicated, and any car-happy City project is bound to meet a lot of opposition, but it's only two bridges more than the City's preferred ("Alternative 1") design for the March/Eagleson LRT station as presented at the PIC, which includes three new pedestrian overpasses and three underpasses for the rail line. The side benefit is that it solves the MTO's medium-term interchange capacity problem, which is bound to necessitate a couple of new bridges in any new design. I'm aiming for something with 50 years' future readiness, so let's solve all the problems at once.

As I have mentioned before, I would rather see the Eagleson Park & Ride Lots removed by building a multistory garage at Terry Fox Station. The western lot could be developed and the eastern lot could be given to the OPP in exchange for their building adjacent to the new Eagleson station, as the new location would give them even easier access to the 417. The land received from the OPP could be used to build a bus loop (and a small kiss and ride with some bicycle parking) adjacent to the station. The money saved from a simpler Eagleson Station design as well as the money earned from developing the one P&R lot, would go a long ways towards building a parking garage at Terry Fox.

That's an interesting idea, though that parking-lot/garage location's ingress/egress isn't easy, and bulking up the Terry Fox station doesn't get as many cars off the 417, since a lot of the suburban/exurban traffic would more naturally meet the LRT at the Eagleson interchange. I believe that the success of the March Road BRT will depend substantially on having carpool lots and convenient LRT transfers at that interchange, which my proposal offers.

[TransitZilla]

A bit strange to see that this thread on LRT is now focused on highway interchange designs and other interchange proposals with little/no regard for pedestrians or cyclists that might be trying to access the LRT.

barbicels: your drawings are interesting but there is no consideration to pedestrian or cycling routes. For example, what about connecting the Watt's Creek Pathway to the LRT station?

We need to remember that Eagleson/March station will be an important transfer point and bus interchange.

Part of the reason transit trips within Kanata today are so difficult is the fact that Eagleson (which serves buses to/from South Kanata) and Teron (which serves buses to/from North Kanata) are across the highway from each other.

When the O-Train is extended to Kanata, a station at Eagleson will bring buses form North and South Kanata to a common point, allowing easy connections not just with the O-Train, but with other bus routes. Eagleson/March will be the station to connect to a bus to the Kanata North Business Park, but also it's where someone would transfer to go from Morgan's Grant to Bridlewood, or Morgan's Grant to Kanata Centrum via the O-Train.

I'm interested in how the road network might evolve, but surrounding the station with traffic sewers and detouring pedestrians for kilometers is not the way to go.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by barbicels

Very complicated, and any car-happy City project is bound to meet a lot of opposition,

And you think “car happy” transit projects are a good thing?

but it's only two bridges more than the City's preferred ("Alternative 1") design for the March/Eagleson LRT station as presented at the PIC, which includes three new pedestrian overpasses and three underpasses for the rail line.

The big problem with the station design from the Environmental Assessment (which I assume is the one you are referring to) is that it has too many over/under passes, so adding more isn’t an improvement.

The side benefit is that it solves the MTO's medium-term interchange capacity problem, which is bound to necessitate a couple of new bridges in any new design. I'm aiming for something with 50 years' future readiness, so let's solve all the problems at once.

Adding more vehicle capacity will only increase traffic and congestion. The best way to reduce congestion is to improve pedestrian, cycling and transit infrastructure. Extending the O-Train to Kanata is the best way to “solve the MTO's medium-term interchange capacity problem” by reducing the amount of traffic.

Designing transit stations to be primarily accessible by car is missing the point Eagleson station should be positioned so that it can be easily accessible from Beaverbrook as well as by bus. Unfortunately, the Queensway acts as a massive barrier to the south regardless of the interchange design. An overpass could be built to Hearst Way but I don’t see the density being there to make it worthwhile, especially with their already being a pedestrian overpass slightly further west to another station.

That's an interesting idea, though that parking-lot/garage location's ingress/egress isn't easy,

It isn’t as difficult as it might seem. Certainly no more difficult than the circuitous maze of ramps and merges your design provides. Then you have the issue of walking to the platform from the parking lot to the platform, by going over or under ramps and highways (not very pleasant). A simplified Eagleson exchange could encourage better TOD around the station. Pushing the platform further east, moves if further away from any existing or future developments (there already are apartments near the corner of Teron and Campeau.

and bulking up the Terry Fox station doesn't get as many cars off the 417, since a lot of the suburban/exurban traffic would more naturally meet the LRT at the Eagleson interchange.

Terry Fox Dr. intersects both Eagleson and March Rd, do anyone living far enough away from the station that they don’t have a bus connection, could easily drive to Terry Fox Station at a similar distance.

I believe that the success of the March Road BRT will depend substantially on having carpool lots and convenient LRT transfers at that interchange, which my proposal offers.

How does the March Rd BRT rely on people parking at Eagleson? Do you think people would park at Eagleson and take BRT to Kanata North? IMHO the success of the March Road BRT will depend on bus routes that connect Eagleson station to the Kanata North business park and, to a lesser extent, the residents of Morgan’s Grant and South March. The only park-and-ride I see supporting the BRT would be the one at innovation Drive, though I could see a new one eventually being built even further north.

[barbicels]

Originally Posted by TransitZilla

A bit strange to see that this thread on LRT is now focused on highway interchange designs and other interchange proposals with little/no regard for pedestrians or cyclists that might be trying to access the LRT.

Thanks to you and roger1818 for a good discussion on this, which illustrates the difficulty transit planners face in trying to get cars *off* the road. A multimodal hub that feeds into LRT is a highway planner's way to do it, while a purer TOD-heavy solution that discourages car traffic is the preference of most current city planners (and myself, if this specific location weren't so naturally overloaded with vehicle traffic). This thread seems to lean toward the latter, and I'm not trying to hijack it; I'm pointing out that the City's preferred Eagleson station design is a (car-)strangled mess that won't do anything to get drivers in the western exurbs to park-and-ride. Maybe that's OK if you think that they're unwinnable, or that a carpool/garage complex makes more sense farther out, maybe Huntmar or Terry Fox (but please, do get the Earl Grey underpass built for egress).