How PC has Christmas become where you live?

[Rusty van Reddick]

I posted this to my blog seven years ago and apparently it has to be repeated because the OP actually believes in this made-up controversy:

If I say “Merry Christmas,” it can be taken one of several ways:

A. It is an appropriate salutation this time of year.

B. I’m a Christian and am saying it to commemorate the birth of Christ, and I expect that you’re a Christian too and feel the same as I do.

C. I’m saying this as a defiant protest against the evils of secular humanism and multiculturalism, which are conspiring to take away our Judeo-Christian traditions and replace it with something that stripped away all vestiges of those traditions.

And for me, the correct answer is “A.” I like Christmas, pretty much, and I also like its secular and Pagan trappings. I am thrilled this time of year to celebrate the solstice and the return of light, and fortunately or unfortunately, that symbolism (with lights, I mean) has become part of Christmas. It’s as much a secular holiday as a religious one, and that’s how I choose to think of it. Go ahead and condemn me. Christmas for me has no religious meaning at all, because I’m not religious.

“But,” you protest, “you’re not celebrating the true meaning of Christmas.” Oh, shut up, neither are you. The three wise men didn’t bring Jesus an iPod, and they didn’t come back every year to deliver a Bed Bath and Beyond gift card. Regardless of its religious trappings, Christmas borrowed from Pagan traditions and it has evolved as a holiday that the non-religious and non-Christian can celebrate. And you know what? For the most part, all of these groups–Christians, the non-religious, and non-Christians–celebrate it almost identically. Christmas is both one of the most spectacular marketing successes AND failures of Christianity. Isn’t that amazing? I think it is.

Anyway, getting back to “Merry Christmas.” There’s been all this hand-wringing lately among the O’Reilly and Hannity and FOX News crowd about how degrading and “politically correct” it’s become for people to eschew “Merry Christmas” in favour of “Happy Holidays” or something like it. I hate–I FUCKING HATE–when petulant, stupid bullies like the hate-filled ignoramuses that FOX hires pull this “politically correct” out of their asses whenever they disagree with something. I’m sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick of it. If you disagree with something, come up with a response, don’t pull out this one-size-fits-all “politically incorrect” label and act as if you’ve refuted something. It reminds me of uses of the word “racist” when I was in grad school: “You’re racist, end of discussion, I win.” For the neo-cons, it’s “You’re PC, end of discussion, I win.” This isn’t discourse, it’s not debate; it’s bullying and I just blow up when anything gets labelled “politically correct” anymore.

That said, horror stories and urban legends aside, all this complaining about the disappearance of “Merry Christmas” is complete crap. COMPLETE CRAP. EVERYBODY still says it, NOBODY is offended by it, and if Canadian Tire (or whoever) wants to be more inclusive by using “Happy Holidays” in an ad, really, is this hurting anyone?

No. There is no crisis. There is no anti-religious defamation. There is nothing going on here. AT ALL.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Rusty van Reddick

I posted this to my blog seven years ago and apparently it has to be repeated because the OP actually believes in this made-up controversy:
L.

That's not the case AT ALL. Reread more closely before impugning motives.

[Rusty van Reddick]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That's not the case AT ALL. Reread more closely before impugning motives.

You invoke "PC" and ask how "PC" it is where we live- and then everybody replies by saying how full of shit the premise is. Why did you even start this thread?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Rusty van Reddick

You invoke "PC" and ask how "PC" it is where we live- and then everybody replies by saying how full of shit the premise is. Why did you even start this thread?

Sheesh. Not everyone has a hidden agenda, you know.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Sheesh. Not everyone has a hidden agenda, you know.

Yeah, but you're such a sneaky bastard, Acajack; almost like you're from Saskatchewan or something. Need to watch you every minute!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Yeah, but you're such a sneaky bastard, Acajack; almost like you're from Saskatchewan or something. Need to watch you every minute!

That must be the explanation.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Rusty van Reddick

That said, horror stories and urban legends aside, all this complaining about the disappearance of “Merry Christmas” is complete crap. COMPLETE CRAP. EVERYBODY still says it, NOBODY is offended by it, and if Canadian Tire (or whoever) wants to be more inclusive by using “Happy Holidays” in an ad, really, is this hurting anyone?

No. There is no crisis. There is no anti-religious defamation. There is nothing going on here. AT ALL.

But there obviously is something going on here. It's not a "crisis" to anyone outside of the fevered minds of Fox News and the Christian right, but they are right that the formerly axiomatic use of Christian expressions and symbols has been eroded somewhat by late twentieth century political correctness.

I don't know how you can argue against that, because that's simply a fact.

It's a territorial contest. But what's interesting, and instructive, is that the "PC forces," if you can call them that, seem to be retreating on the issue by acknowledging that we are a legacy Christian culture. The secular usurper understands that just as using the fourth day of the week doesn't (necessarily) invoke the god of thunder, so saying "Merry Christmas" doesn't signify that a person is an eager participant in a bronze age death cult who practice cannibalistic rituals.

Though Thursday for me is indeed a holy day. That means that I don't work, I don't drive a car, I don't fucking ride in a car, I don't handle money, I don't turn on the oven, and I sure as shit don't fucking roll!

[1overcosc]

I was born in 1993. I'm too young to remember a time before Canada was the secular liberal multicultural place it is today. The idea that Christmas was once a religious festival where everybody gathered around to praise the birth of the Lord just seems weird to me. Just like the stories of having to say the Lord's Prayer every morning in school, and not being able to shop or do anything on Sunday, are all weird to me.

[EpicPonyTime]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I was born in 1993. I'm too young to remember a time before Canada was the secular liberal multicultural place it is today. The idea that Christmas was once a religious festival where everybody gathered around to praise the birth of the Lord just seems weird to me. Just like the stories of having to say the Lord's Prayer every morning in school, and not being able to shop or do anything on Sunday, are all weird to me.

That's really interesting, cause I'm only two years older than you but I remember Christmas as a religious holiday and saying prayer in school. We did it up until grade five here, at least, along with singing the national anthem.

I wonder if it's a regional thing, since I'm from the backwards land of Saskatchewan.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime

That's really interesting, cause I'm only two years older than you but I remember Christmas as a religious holiday and saying prayer in school. We did it up until grade five here, at least, along with singing the national anthem.

I wonder if it's a regional thing, since I'm from the backwards land of Saskatchewan.

In Ontario, saying prayers in public school was banned in 1988. It may be a regional thing, indeed. I know in BC it wasn't banned until 1996.

I know it's not just me, because everybody I know my age would agree with the statement I made.

[SignalHillHiker]

It's clearly still "Merry Christmas" here. From today's mummering. I caught four or five people saying it; never heard "Happy Holidays" or the like once.

• Video Link

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Is Christ still in Christmas?

Christ is only in Christmas for religious people, for the rest of us its a cultural holiday for family and friends. My family are all atheist and we celebrate the holidays with gusto. All of our traditions are pagan: the tree, candles, reindeer, etc. The only borrowed tradition from religious people is the exchange of gifts. It has no religious symbolism for us and never did.

As long as the government makes no religious references in their holiday observances, I'm ok with it all. A tree, lights, reindeer, snowman, etc. are perfectly fine. Angels, a manger, a crucifix are not ok. We have separation of Church and State supposedly. The government can not be seen to be preaching religious doctrine of any kind... EVER.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Rusty van Reddick

C. I’m saying this as a defiant protest against the evils of secular humanism and multiculturalism, which are conspiring to take away our Judeo-Christian traditions and replace it with something that stripped away all vestiges of those traditions.

That's where people get into trouble. Certain groups trying to take ownership over a holiday and dump their own religious beliefs on everyone else. We don't live in a theocracy and by extension the state can't preach any religion. That must remain a private matter.... especially since we're a multi-cultural nation with separation of Church and State.

Let people practice their religion at their Church, Mosque, Temple, Synagogue, or private property. There can't be any religious symbology in government. Freedom Of Religion BUT ALSO Freedom From Religion.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I was born in 1993. I'm too young to remember a time before Canada was the secular liberal multicultural place it is today. The idea that Christmas was once a religious festival where everybody gathered around to praise the birth of the Lord just seems weird to me. Just like the stories of having to say the Lord's Prayer every morning in school, and not being able to shop or do anything on Sunday, are all weird to me.

In most provinces, Sunday shopping was legalized in the late 1980s or early 1990s, but it came later in Atlantic Canada.

I don't remember when the Lord's Prayer was spoken in school, it must have been before the late 1980s. But I wonder if that discretion should return to individual school boards? While urban boards would certainly frown on that and would never approve of it in today's society, maybe some rural boards or schools may want it returned?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

In most provinces, Sunday shopping was legalized in the late 1980s or early 1990s, but it came later in Atlantic Canada.

This was sometimes presented as a religious issue, but it really wasn't, at least by the time it was debated in the 90's and later in Nova Scotia. The argument that stores ought to have remained closed on Sunday for religious reasons just wasn't a major part of the public debate about the issue. The biggest concerns by far were about mom and pop stores competing with chains (which is why there was at one point a square footage limit on who could open) and unfair working hours for retail employees. I think people in Atlantic Canada are generally more willing to put the breaks on economic activity if there's a perceived social cost (Quebec is like this too -- I don't think it's a coincidence that fracking for example is banned in QC, NB, and NS). They're also relatively tolerant of taxation and, I suspect, less focused on personal income and material wealth (partly because the ones who want to make as much money as possible leave). Usually when these cultural differences play out in public the national media reports on them in a very strange, tone-deaf and often moralizing way. Sunday shopping was a bit like this way back when; in the national media it was just about Eastern provinces needing to get with the modern program [of naive, shameless consumerism] and stop being so religious or whatever it was they were doing.

I have the feeling the debate over Sunday shopping in places like Germany may have a similar sort of feel to Atlantic Canada. Germany is not a super religious place, although admittedly the Eastern areas that also tend to be the most atheist had looser laws around shopping hours before reunification.

[SignalHillHiker]

Here most restrictions on Sunday shopping were removed in 1998. I'm not sure if this is required by law or not, but almost everything here that used to be closed on Sundays opens only from 12-6.

Before the ban, though, there were lots of work-arounds. The Avalon Mall, for example, used to have a huge "flea market" every Sunday. The mall was open, all the merchandise racks in the hallways instead of the stores.

It's a bit like bars today. They're supposed to stop serving booze at 3 and close by 4 - but there are bars that literally only open their doors at 4. They're never shut down.

jeddy1989 used to work the door at a bar in town and would always get a laugh out of tourists from the mainland talking about how St. John's wasn't living up to its reputation for nightlife. But it was only midnight or earlier. It doesn't really get going here until after that.

[vid]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

In Ontario, saying prayers in public school was banned in 1988. It may be a regional thing, indeed. I know in BC it wasn't banned until 1996.

I know it's not just me, because everybody I know my age would agree with the statement I made.

We said the Lord's Prayer in my school up until 1996, and I'm in Ontario, and went to a Public board school... Christmas songs, even religious ones, were still played at Christmas right up until 2006 when I finished school.

[urbandreamer]

I've never celebrated Christmas nor had an Xmas tree but I'm ok with people saying Merry Christmas. I'm not really a fan of political correctness.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

In most provinces, Sunday shopping was legalized in the late 1980s or early 1990s, but it came later in Atlantic Canada.

I don't remember when the Lord's Prayer was spoken in school, it must have been before the late 1980s. But I wonder if that discretion should return to individual school boards? While urban boards would certainly frown on that and would never approve of it in today's society, maybe some rural boards or schools may want it returned?

Not possible. It was banned because the courts declared it unconstitutional for boards to have prayer in public schools. They ruled it was violation of freedom of religion:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Zylberberg v. Sudbury Board of Education (Director) The Ontario Court of Appeal ruled that the use of the Lord’s Prayer in opening exercises in public schools offended the Charter s. 2(a). 1988. (1988), 65 O.R. (2d) 641, 29 O.A.C. 23 (C.A.). Education regulations did not require the use of the Lord's Prayer and there was an exemption provision. The Ontario Court of Appeal ruled that the regulation infringed religious freedom because schools could use only the Lord's Prayer rather than a more inclusive approach. It was argued that the exemption provision effectively stigmatized children and coerced them into a religious observance which was offensive to them.

Originally Posted by vid

We said the Lord's Prayer in my school up until 1996, and I'm in Ontario, and went to a Public board school... Christmas songs, even religious ones, were still played at Christmas right up until 2006 when I finished school.

Huh? This means that your school board was in violation of a constitutional ruling. I guess nobody noticed/complained.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by isaidso

As long as the government makes no religious references in their holiday observances, I'm ok with it all. A tree, lights, reindeer, snowman, etc. are perfectly fine. Angels, a manger, a crucifix are not ok. We have separation of Church and State supposedly. The government can not be seen to be preaching religious doctrine of any kind... EVER.

Originally Posted by isaidso

That's where people get into trouble. Certain groups trying to take ownership over a holiday and dump their own religious beliefs on everyone else. We don't live in a theocracy and by extension the state can't preach any religion. That must remain a private matter.... especially since we're a multi-cultural nation with separation of Church and State.

Let people practice their religion at their Church, Mosque, Temple, Synagogue, or private property. There can't be any religious symbology in government. Freedom Of Religion BUT ALSO Freedom From Religion.

Agreed 100%. Government must be secular. Incidentally, I have been accused of racism for being against having Muslim prayer rooms in public schools for this reason... which boils my blood. Now, being against Muslim prayer rooms but accepting nativity scenes and crosses, that would be racist. But being against both on grounds of secularism, is not.