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  #3041  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2008, 3:42 PM
takascar takascar is offline
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Originally Posted by BVictor1 View Post
02/23/08

What floor are they on now? I count 65.
     
     
  #3042  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2008, 3:57 PM
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Originally Posted by BorisMolotov View Post
On the Alliance Building Standard Rating System, henceforth known as ABSRS, I give it a 7.5. It's good, but not jaw-dropping. I don't really think many buildings are as bad as people make them seem. I really don't get the urge to strap explosives to the core of buildings like Trump or even places like the Columbian or Millennium Centre.
Average buildings frequently get treated as bad, horrible buildings on this board for one of three reasons: (1) Didn't live up to potential (2) Done on the cheap (we sometimes forget that we can't expect every building to be constructed in the same manner as the Spire simply b/c we need cheap buildings for regular people), (3) failed to satisfy some sort of vague, inarticulable, and ever-changing notion of good architecture. If you ask me, ripping on buildings like Trump just ends up diluting what bad architecture really is (see Vision on State).

Alliance is right to a certain extent. We shouldn't rely on public opinion as the sole criteria for determining whether something is good architecure. (The doctor analogy is completely flawed but I won't go there) At the same time, when critical opinion is so out of line with public opinion, it may be time to reevaluate the grading criteria the critic uses or risk completely losing legitimacy. A critic may try to push public opinion in one direction or another, but he can't outright fight it without risking looking like an elitist, out of touch snob with no sense of real world priorities.
     
     
  #3043  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2008, 7:23 PM
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^^^ I think thats a fair assessment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LucasS6 View Post
Again, I have to bring up food critics. If someone told you a certain dish that you liked was lacking in contextualism or was too bland or something would you listen to them and change your mind? Or would you laugh and be like "Is this guy fucking kidding me, telling me my opinion on something obviously subjective is wrong"?

Don't bother to answer. I think we all know the deal. Which, by the by, is why so many people laugh at AdrianXSands here.
The point is, your opinion may be subjective, but the building is not. I can go around all day and tell you my "opinion" that the sky is orange. Will you really sit back and say "your opinion is equal to mine?" Peoples opinions can be wrong. A lot of judgement is formed from consensus of opinion. Not everything is blatantly subjective. Architecture is one of those things. This isn't an issue of whats your favorite color.

Example: R.R. Donnelly. I kind of have some affection for it, but when it comes down to it, its not really a great building. There is a difference between my personal opinion/tastes but I can realize that they're more outside the norm.

This is where Nowhereman's point comes into play. When people become INFORMED they make better opinions. I'm not going to let someone on the street come up and tell me how great Trump is when there is no reason why I should value thier opinion. That said, there are people's whose opinoin I value more than mine. I sincerely think that when people view the building in its entirety, they do not have such a high opinion of it. Making sure theat you have a full and informed frame of reference is critical to formulating an opinion.

And, I don't appreciate your snobbery. I'm not the one trying to shut down discussion. I'm trying to encourage it. My opinion of this building has continuously changed and I have made that clear. I'm tired of being demonized by a few hypocrites on this forum who can't get over the fact that not every building in their city is a shining pinnacle of architectural might.
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  #3044  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2008, 9:34 PM
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  #3045  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2008, 9:58 PM
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Quote:
R.R. Donnelly. I kind of have some affection for it, but when it comes down to it, its not really a great building. There is a difference between my personal opinion/tastes but I can realize that they're more outside the norm.
But in this case, why is it not a great building? What did it need to do in order to become a great building?

As this relates to Trump, I know you think its just an average building, but why is it only that? Personally, I don't think it's excellent, I think its much better than average. Why? Because I find it attractive, simply put. I would rather look at that than something like the Columbian. Its shiny, glassy, I happen to like this particular shade of blue. But thats just my opinion. But its a WHY. Which is something we don't get alot of on here, just I don't like it so it should be destroyed or its excellent.
     
     
  #3046  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2008, 9:59 PM
cwilson cwilson is offline
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WOW!! this pictures are very indepth...ver nice
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  #3047  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2008, 10:17 PM
Nowhereman1280 Nowhereman1280 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alliance View Post
The point is, your opinion may be subjective, but the building is not. I can go around all day and tell you my "opinion" that the sky is orange. Will you really sit back and say "your opinion is equal to mine?" Peoples opinions can be wrong. A lot of judgement is formed from consensus of opinion. Not everything is blatantly subjective. Architecture is one of those things. This isn't an issue of whats your favorite color.
Wow Alliance, your latest post was one of the better ones I have read on this forum in a long time. I do have to disagree with the analogy in the quoted part though. I know I just disagreed with your last few analogies, but I think this one is no good either, sorry!

The sky is blue, that is a fact. It is not a fact that _____ style of architecture looks good while ______ style is ugly. Aesthetics are a function of pure opinion, not of fact. While the color of the sky is a matter of science and is a fact, not subject to opinion.

Other than that, stellar post.
     
     
  #3048  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2008, 11:20 PM
LucasS6 LucasS6 is offline
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The idea that architecture is as objective as the color of the sky is entirely laughable. Somehow a building being attractive is objective when human attractiveness is not?

The people being the snobs here are the ones that insist the building is ugly when others believe that it is not and trying to tell others that it is objective that it's such. Effectively telling everyone else that their opinion is wrong.

The food comparison is extremely apt, as would a painting or sculpture analogy. I'm not sitting here telling you your favorite food is shit, and that it's objective that it's bad looking. However, you get some people telling us that they "Like good design" which simply tells us that it's objectively "bad design" and we have no taste.

Who's acting snobby again? Now excuse me, I'm gonna grab some In 'N' Out. Someone please tell me it's shitty food and I'm going to proceed to not care.
     
     
  #3049  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2008, 11:30 PM
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* posts deleted *

guys, take the philosophy discussion about the color of the sky to a different thread. this thread is about trump tower chicago.
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  #3050  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2008, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LucasS6 View Post
...as would a painting or sculpture analogy...
architecture is not painting or sculpture. it's making space work.

are you a construction worker at trump by any chance?
     
     
  #3051  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2008, 11:41 PM
LucasS6 LucasS6 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianXSands View Post
architecture is not painting or sculpture. it's making space work.
And books are typed on paper and movies are recorded on to film. That doesn't make them incredibly different. And it doesn't make their value objective.

Quote:
are you a construction worker at trump by any chance?
Is there an In 'N' Out within a thousand miles of Wabash and the river? If there is, I want my 3AM trips to White Castle or Taco Burrito II or Mr. Sub back.
     
     
  #3052  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2008, 1:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianXSands View Post
architecture is not painting or sculpture. it's making space work.

are you a construction worker at trump by any chance?
Tell that to Calatrava
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  #3053  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2008, 4:45 AM
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In the small world category: My wife's hobby is community theatre, just started a new show, and she came home from the first night of rehersal today. She said one of the guys in the cast introduced himself as the project manager of Trump Tower!

Now I need to figure out how to rangle a site visit out of that....
     
     
  #3054  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2008, 4:52 PM
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A lot of this discussion has moved into the State of Chicago Architecture thread. Thanks Nowhereman and jstush.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BorisMolotov View Post
But in this case, why is it not a great building? What did it need to do in order to become a great building?
I've explained a lot of this before in much more detail and I wish to refrain from rehashing this, unleast until teh building is finished and I can really see it.

As a development, I think its very hard to aruge against the building.

Pros: Facade if Smith is really tring to re-evaluate/reincarnate Chicago Style modernism. Glas mood.

Cons: I think the "stacked building approach fails. I find it distracting and uninspiring.Some material quality issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BVictor1 View Post
Tell that to Calatrava
Yes, please. If he doesn't slap you, I will.
Architecture is both. Thats what makes it so unique.
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  #3055  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2008, 9:35 PM
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http://www.suntimes.com/business/812...rump26.article

First unit gets flip treatment in Trump downtown hotel

REAL ESTATE | Profit undisclosed, but sellers 'did quite well,' agent says

February 26, 2008
BY DAVID ROEDER droeder@suntimes.com

Donald Trump of "You're fired!" fame now can say to two of his Chicago buyers, "You've flipped!"
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  #3056  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2008, 10:04 PM
cbotnyse cbotnyse is offline
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^ Is that only hotel units? A guy I worked with a few years ago got in very early on a condo and last I heard he had sold it already, can't confirm that though, he has since moved out to CA.

That is good news though, becuase the national housing market is getting worse and worse it seems.
     
     
  #3057  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2008, 8:11 AM
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As of this past weekend, Trump Tower was 13 whole floors (i.e. 14 floorplates) above the setback. That puts it at 800'-1", not including however high the core rises from the top.

When it gets to the 73rd floorplate (4 more floors) it'll overtake Park Tower for 10th tallest in Chicago. After that, each of the next three floors buys Trump a higher place in the rankings, so that when it's 7 floors higher than it is now, it'll be the 7th tallest in Chicago.

Here's the breakdown. The floor level is actually the top of the floorplate, so when it's 68 floors up (now) it's actually reached the 69th floorplate:

76th - 877'-4" (900 North Michigan = 871')
75th - 866'-7" (Water Tower Place = 859')
74th - 855'-10" (Chase Tower = 850')
73rd - 845'-1" (Park Tower = 844')
...
69th - 800'-1" (now)
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  #3058  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2008, 12:20 PM
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^ Dan, this is great data. Thanks for the info; we'll be joining you in the countdown.

By the way, Trump looked fantastic yesterday from the Roosevelt viaduct as the sun set. If anyone has their camera handy and is ever in the area, this is a view we haven't seen yet posted here, and it's quite a good one.
     
     
  #3059  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2008, 3:51 PM
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I went to the sixteen restaurant this past weekend. Here are some pics from there. I have to say the quality of service was quite impecable more so than the food.

They were taken with my camera phone so sorry for the quality, plus the glass was dirty.

All photos taken by me on 02/24/08. More pics here

The view is priceless




It looks like they are planting flowers on the patio...


The inside...it was 5:30pm so they had just begun seating for dinner...


one last one..
     
     
  #3060  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2008, 12:24 AM
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Today:



Last edited by JV_325i; Feb 29, 2008 at 10:02 PM.
     
     
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