[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[fenwick16]

I think that the Chronicle Herald, and certainly the Coast, disproportionately provides the views of the anti-development groups. I am sure that the majority of HRM residents support growth, but if you read the local area news you would think that almost everyone wants to return to the 1800's. For that reason to Dan Leger (for not being politically correct).

[halifaxboyns]

I agree - I find it funny that people defending these groups are calling people's reaction name calling. I don't get that because I never elected them nor did I ask them to represent my view and I'm sure there are large numbers of people who would agree that they are way over the line.

While I except that the financial argument is still a huge piece of the puzzle, taking that aside - the views are already protected from specific points on the hill. The council of the day did not protect the entire view - that wasn't their intention and how that policy in the MPS ever got there (it needs to be clarified or removed or at least fixed up because it makes no sense).

The proposal doesn't negatively impact a viewplane - it was designed to avoid them so then what is the big deal from that perspective?

People's opinions about style and design will never agree 100%; there will always be someone who disagrees. But I for one feel this group has way too much power and it's only a matter of time before some developer gets impeded by this group and takes them to court. Frankly, if I were a developer and they tried to stop a project of mine and I had deep pockets; I'd take them to court for the thrill because I'm sure it would send those groups into the poor house. I'd probably do it for sheer spite, but then again I've been known to be nasty when people tick me off.

As the city grows; I suspect you will see more people moving to the opinion of progress over the past. I doubt it would ever be to the point of progress despite the past (and people would tear down every heritage building they could find - I certainly hope not; because there is value to preserving our past; that's part of maritime tradition). But certainly I think there will be a big push to find reasonable compromises where heritage could be preserved but modern city life created too - through intergration into building design, or even taking unused density from certain heritage parcels (leaving the buildings) and transfering it to other sites? Who knows!

[someone123]

The financial argument is potentially valid but still puts the cart before the horse somewhat given the fact that project details are not yet public. Basically, there's a vague report about what a convention centre might be and a rendering that upsets some people because it looks tall.

[hfxtradesman]

Originally Posted by phrenic

Very true, but Dexter is the one who will ultimately get blamed for either "wasting $100+ million of tax payers money" or "for not seeing the opportunity," depending on what the decision is and who you ask.

the problem will be if this project doesn't go ahead the dexter gov will blame rank for beging too high in price, when in fact dexter wanted more, too make this project cost more to make this project fail

[worldlyhaligonian]

If this is built it will be a success. Anything the heritage or view folks are saying isn't based in the real world. Its all about the exposure for them.

The common person in Halifax doesn't have a clue about anything we discuss on here. In fact, they often believe the untruths that have been created.

People speaking out against developments with potential federal funds is like saying no to free money for this region. Its rediculous.

Debt is not the enemy and its times like this, where our city is well positioned, to build.

Build it any they will come.

[fenwick16]

I just hope that if they decide not to proceed that they will have a plan B for a convention centre. Considering all the reports stating that the current WTCC-I is not adequate, it would be a slap in the face to all the local area business people to say that a new convention centre is not required.

[worldlyhaligonian]

It certainly is required... Nobody could argue what we currently have is even up to the standard of hosting a medium sized trade show or conference. I want to see updated renderings.

[halifaxboyns]

I'm hopeful that this is a catalyst for some serious negative backlash against the HT if they kill this. For me; it's one thing to kill it because Rank's project is financially out of whack and come back with a similar project with a good (even great design) for cheaper - fine. If Rank's numbers are way off and that's the reason this project dies; I won't cry because it gives someone else an opportunity to do it better and cheaper.

But if the HT and StV kill this - then I hope the uproar over it; being stopped from a heritage or anti-development perspective creates such a huge uproar and backlash.

I've said before that its only a matter of time before a developer takes these groups to court over their constant appeals and inherant expropriate of land through the appeal process (their constant appeals). This may be the situation that tips the scale and I wouldn't be surprised if Rank were to launch a lawsuit against them.

Do I think it will come to any of this - well; who knows. We've all lived in Halifax at some point (or still do) and all we can do is wait and see and hope. Many of us like or dislike the design and have concerns about the financial implications; but we all agree that the convention centre needs to be improved.

One other thing - if the project dies; I wonder if it might spawn something better on the site and a better convention centre design?

[eastcoastal]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

...
But if the HT and StV kill this - then I hope the uproar over it; being stopped from a heritage or anti-development perspective creates such a huge uproar and backlash....

I can't imagine this group (let's face it, they're both really one) will actually affect whether this moves forward at this site or not. I don't think their arguments about the protected views that are already in place need to be expanded. One thing that the HbD process may lend this project (despite it being exempt from some of the rules) is the process used to develop HbD in the first place. During its development, there were many opportunities for the protection of views to be expanded, consultants did not advise it happen, and the public opinion was not in favour of providing more protections.

I also hope that as downtown gets more residents, they will be thy type to speak more vocally for a livable city (and not some half-assed recreation of a romanticized version of history that never really existed).

[beyeas]

The point that Leger and Taylor have made lately (thankfully) is that they are hiding behind the financial argument, when it is really about height.

The know there is a contingent of people who will be against public money going into this, and then they can claim to add those people to their side if they make that their argument.

The question that they then avoid is, would you be ok with this project if it was purely private, and the answer from a group that calls itself Save the View is of course "no".

[fenwick16]

There was a column in the Chronicle Herald on Saturday about the convention centre. All the usual ANTI-everything suspects were out in full force stating their educated opinions. For people in favour (or opposed) you can post comments on the column at http://thechronicleherald.ca/Business/1192294.html

Without convention centre, who knows what won’t happen

By ROGER TAYLOR Business Columnist
Sat. Jul 17 - 4:54 AM

I’ve been trying to imagine what downtown Halifax would be like if a new convention centre fails to receive government support.

Without government support, the convention centre won’t be built and anything that is built there instead couldn’t possibly have the same impact on the city.

Aside from attracting business from outside of Nova Scotia, events held at the new convention centre will have the added benefit of drawing people to the downtown that normally wouldn’t come to the area.

If the convention centre isn’t built, there would be little need to build the 500-room, five-star hotel on Argyle Street, which is part of the larger proposal.

Public funds are necessary to support the creation of a new convention centre but Rank Inc., the owner of the property, is planning to build a hotel, office tower and retail development, which will not require any financing from government.

The convention centre is predicted to cost as much as $140 million but the entire project would cost in excess of $400 million to build.

The hotel alone will create a large number of jobs and the guests will provide a new source of customers for the existing downtown entertainment district.

If the convention centre isn’t included, the construction project would be vastly scaled back, to say the least.

Without a convention centre and hotel, an ordinary office tower will probably be built. An office building will attract a significant number of workers to the downtown during the day but it won’t create the kind of buzz the larger project offers.

Unbelievably, there are some people who say they’d prefer to have an empty lot where the Herald Building once stood.

If that suggestion was followed, there is little doubt it would have a devastating effect on the long-term prospects for the downtown business district and, arguably, the provincial capital as a

whole.

Fortunately, leaving it a vacant lot is not an option. It doesn’t matter what the empty-space people want, the owners of the former Herald lands must develop the property if they want to make a return on their investment.

Without a convention centre, it will be a much smaller development, resulting in less property tax going to city coffers. And fewer people in downtown restaurants and bars will mean the provincial government will be forfeiting the potential for far greater tax revenue generated by an exciting new hotel and convention centre complex.

The debate over the convention centre has been going on for some time but now Nova Scotians are closer to getting a decision.

Monday is the deadline for Rank to submit a detailed plan to the provincial government. A decision on a new convention centre should come soon afterwards, according to Infrastructure Renewal Minister Bill Estabrooks.

In an earlier news report, Estabrooks indicated cabinet would likely make a decision soon after the plan is presented.

"I would prefer it to be quickly because we’ve had lots of input and lots of debate on the topic and Nova Scotians . . . are looking forward to the decision where we’re going with the convention centre, so let’s get it done," he said.

Opponents are expected to step up the pressure on government to reject the plan. One group, which wants downtown buildings to remain under six storeys, believes it can prevent highrise buildings from being built in this case if it can persuade the government to rebuff the convention proposal.

No matter what the government’s decision, the price of acquiring the land and construction costs require that the buildings be of a certain scale. Besides, the municipality’s development rules allow highrise buildings to be constructed on that site.

Business people like certainty and, while most can understand the huge potential the project offers, few can project what might happen if the convention centre doesn’t get the go ahead.

( rtaylor@herald.ca)

[halifaxboyns]

After reading most of the comments; I see the major stumbling block to the project is the investment of public dollars.

There seems to be an overwhelming opinion that previous measures to make things better by infusing tax payer dollars have either failed or done little to nothing (thus failing).

I can understand why some would have that opinion and I will give them credit for it - how long has the Atlantic Canada Opportunities agency been a joke? I mean really; I have a lot of skepticism for them.

That being said - if that attitude prevails, nothing will ever evolve if all that is needed a little push. I would feel different if it was a completely government project; designed and built that way. But with a private developer asking for money - why she he be given money, when no projects like the Trillium are done with private funds?

I've asked the question before and I will post it again on the Herald website - taking the money argument out of the question - would people support it? I suspect the answer will still be no. So sad.

[halifaxboyns]

Not sure if anyone posted this from the weekend:
Clearing up convention centre conspiracy
The former Halifax Herald property was sold in 2002
By BEV DAUPHINEE
Sat. Jul 17 - 4:54 AM

If we build it, will they come? And even if they do come, will it be worth the cost of building it?

These are a couple of the questions swirling around the new convention centre proposed for the former Chronicle Herald property in downtown Halifax.

The complex would take up two blocks of the downtown core and would include hotel, office and retail space in addition to the convention centre.

Estimates indicate the entire project’s price tag will be close to $400 million, with the convention centre portion making up $120 million to $140 million of that. Funding for the convention centre would be shared by the federal and provincial governments and Halifax Regional Municipality — which means we, the taxpayers, will be footing that part of the bill.

Proponents of this new centre say it would be a catalyst to revitalizing the downtown and would attract bigger and better conventions than our current World Trade and Convention Centre can handle, bringing in lots of money to boost the local economy.

Opponents say huge convention centres such as the one proposed are money-losers in other cities, it would be a drain on the local economy and taxpayers, and would ruin the view of Halifax Harbour from Citadel Hill.

Since the beginning of this steamy month, the convention centre debate has been heating up, as the July 19 deadline approaches for Rank Inc. to submit detailed plans, so the province can decide if it wants to negotiate a contract with the developer.

It is not my intention today to enter the argument on the pros and cons of the proposal, although for the record, I’ll reiterate my position: I’m in favour of the development. Anything that might spur new life, interest and growth in downtown Halifax is worth an investment, in my opinion.

My reason for writing this column is to clear up some misconceptions that are apparently floating around out there about The Chronicle Herald, its owners and staff, and our role in the convention centre project — in a nutshell, we have none.

I received an email this week that contained a number of outlandish allegations of collusion and censorship at The Herald. Normally, I would ignore this kind of thing; years of experience have taught me that facts seldom win a battle against unfounded rumours and false accusations.

However, this email wasn’t just sent to me; it went out to about 40 people, including a number of public officials, and I couldn’t let the charges against The Herald and its staff go unchallenged.

So, here are the facts:

•The former downtown Halifax Herald property — the building and parking lots — was sold in 2002. For the last several years that we operated in that location, we leased the space from the new owners. The Chronicle Herald has no financial interest in the proposed development of the site and has nothing to gain, or lose, whether the convention centre goes ahead or not.

•There is no "collusion" between the newspaper and governments on this or any other issue. I suspect all politicians and government officials, like most other people who read our news coverage of the goings-on at all levels of government, would laugh at that suggestion.

•There is no censorship to "suppress" points of view that "they don’t support." I’m not sure who "they" refers to — some mysterious higher power at The Herald, newsroom managers, reporters, editors? Believe me, we do not all have the same opinions on issues, so I don’t know how we’d figure out which views to suppress.

Our news stories attempt to fairly, and without bias, present all sides of an issue. Writers of columns, op-eds and letters to the editor get to express their personal views, whatever they are — subject to libel laws and space restrictions, but not to the whim of an editor who disagrees with the opinion expressed.

The outline below clearly shows both sides in the convention centre debate have had their say.

In the first week of July, we ran two news stories: "Report on new convention centre costing taxpayers thousands" (July 3) and "PR battle unfair, cry centre opponents" (July 4). And between July 1 and July 8, we ran five letters to the editor on the topic, four opposing the proposal and one suggesting that a land swap — building the convention centre on the old Infirmary site and the new library on the former Herald site — might solve the viewplane issue and make everyone happy.

We published two more letters from convention centre opponents on Monday, July 12 — the same day Dan Leger’s column appeared, taking the opposite view.

Dan’s column stirred up a hornet’s nest. In the next two days, I received 10 letters and two opinion articles on the convention centre; the letter writers were pretty evenly divided on the topic, but both op-ed authors took issue with Dan’s views. On Wednesday, I ran six of the letters, three pro and three con, and one article.

Emails continue to come in on the topic, still fairly evenly divided, but it’s becoming obvious that both sides of the issue have mounted letter-writer campaigns. Meanwhile, there are other topics in the news that people are writing letters about, and it’s time to give them a little space.

( bdauphinee@herald.ca)

From the Chronicle Herald Saturday online edition.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

There seems to be an overwhelming opinion that previous measures to make things better by infusing tax payer dollars have either failed or done little to nothing (thus failing).

I can understand why some would have that opinion and I will give them credit for it - how long has the Atlantic Canada Opportunities agency been a joke? I mean really; I have a lot of skepticism for them.

Sadly, there is a perception that the downtown has been on life support, soaking up public money without any positive effects, when in reality the downtown is a cash cow and sees very little public investment. There's been lots of talk but very little follow-through, even on small projects.

Lots of people are also confused about ACOA. They don't do much in the city. Public funds go disproportionately to rural areas.

[hfxtradesman]

A little more info I got today. The price went out on time and at a price of 120k, we could get an answer by the end of the month, from the gov. side of things. Everything was in the price the gov had asked for and there is no arts centre. There should be a new updated more detailed picture coming out sonner than later on the look of the trade centre.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by hfxtradesman

A little more info I got today. The price went out on time and at a price of 120k, we could get an answer by the end of the month, from the gov. side of things. Everything was in the price the gov had asked for and there is no arts centre. There should be a new updated more detailed picture coming out sonner than later on the look of the trade centre.

Thanks for the info. That sounds like a reasonable price ($120 million), especially if it includes all of the furnishings. I am looking forward to seeing the new renderings. I hope that soon there will be an end to the grossly inflated costs that we keep hearing (everywhere from $170 million to $300 million, primarily coming from the Save the View group).

$120 million would break down to $40 million from the three levels of government (the federal government has a long track record of funding convention centres).

[worldlyhaligonian]

Let's see this built.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Thanks for the info. That sounds like a reasonable price ($120 million), especially if it includes all of the furnishings. I am looking forward to seeing the new renderings. I hope that soon there will be an end to the grossly inflated costs that we keep hearing (everywhere from $170 million to $300 million, primarily coming from the Save the View group).

$120 million would break down to $40 million from the three levels of government (the federal government has a long track record of funding convention centres).

the 120 is construction cost, and does not include the furnishings.

It would be interesting to see the details around the lease terms and if there is cost overuns who swallows them.

Finally there was an interview with the minister today and it was mentioned the decision would be in the fall?

[fenwick16]

This article was in the Chronicle Herald today - http://thechronicleherald.ca/Business/1192828.html . I like this quotation: Trade Centre Ltd., a provincial Crown corporation that operates the World Trade and Convention Centre on Argyle Street, has spent more than $50,000 in public money on studies and open houses in support of a new, downtown convention centre.

Those expenditures have upset opponents of the plan who say it gave convention centre boosters an unfair public relations advantage.

If this is true then these opponents should be treated as children and not be taken seriously at all. Should the three levels of government proceed without all due diligence?

Rank delivers centre plans
Developer says he has other options if province nixes convention complex
By BRUCE ERSKINE Business Reporter
Tue. Jul 20 - 4:52 AM

The detailed plan for a potential new downtown Halifax convention centre is in the province’s hands.

"The ball is in their court," said Joe Ramia of Rank Inc., in an interview on Monday. Ramia submitted his development company’s plans for a major complex to occupy the former Halifax Herald lands on Argyle Street to the provincial government by the 2 p.m. Monday deadline.

"It’s a big package," he said. "It’s everything they asked for."

Ramia wouldn’t disclose details of the plan or put a price tag on it.

But the entire project, including the convention centre, a hotel and office and retail space, has been estimated at $400 million.

Costs for the convention centre component, which would require public funding, have been pegged at between $120 million and $140 million.

Convention centre proponents say it would give downtown Halifax a much needed economic boost.

Opponents say it is a waste of tax dollars in a shrinking North American convention market that would also block the view of Halifax Harbour from Citadel Hill.

Trade Centre Ltd., a provincial Crown corporation that operates the World Trade and Convention Centre on Argyle Street, has spent more than $50,000 in public money on studies and open houses in support of a new, downtown convention centre.

Those expenditures have upset opponents of the plan who say it gave convention centre boosters an unfair public relations advantage.

Ramia said the convention centre was the government’s idea.

"We didn’t propose the convention centre," he said, noting that Rank simply answered a government request for proposals.

"They asked. We responded."

Rank has alternative plans for the large downtown property if the convention centre plan doesn’t go forward, Ramia said.

"We have B and C plans without a convention centre," he said.

Ramia had no idea how long the government will consider his company’s submission before making a decision.

"We’ll wait and listen to what they say," he said.

Government spokeswoman Cathy MacIsaac said it will take some time to go through the detailed plan, which Ramia said was delivered in boxes.

"There are lots of details," she said, suggesting it would take a few weeks to fully assess and evaluate the proposal.

The plan will also be examined by Halifax regional council.

( berskine@herald.ca)

[JustinMacD]

I just have a quick question. I was on Facebook and saw the "Save the View" group on there... and I was just wondering if these people have day jobs? Do they 100% dedicate their lives to this goal of slowing down Halifax's progress? I was just sort of curious. Like Pacey, what does he do? This Liz MacDougall person, what does she do?