ATLANTA | Development Thread VI

[AtlantaMustang]

Originally Posted by Ant131531

No there's not which means he's making the same mistakes in Midtown that he made in downtown 30 years ago. That block and CODA is going to create a deadzone. Why do office buildings struggle to create good retail environments? Why is it so hard for developers to get it RIGHT? How does Midtown sign off on this? It's terrible. This is the first development in Midotwn this cycle I absoluetely abhor. It's everything wrong with Downtown during the 70s and 80s now being built in Midtown and it's not a surprise it's from Portman who loves to build his WORSE projects here and his BEST projects elsewhere. He's going to ruin Midtown and I can't believe people are okay with this.

Originally Posted by alco89

Yes there is. 2 retail slots with banks in them in the first tower, then 2 more in the second. Patio shown in the furthest to the left.

[Ant131531]

Because banks are such an exciting retail prospect /sarcasm.

[AtlantaMustang]

Originally Posted by Ant131531

Because banks are such an exciting retail prospect /sarcasm.

Well you said there was none.... so. And CODA will have 45K(?) sf of retail, hardly a dead zone.

[Pemgin]

Remember 10 years ago, when we were getting interesting proposals (Aquarius Tower, Mandarin Oriental, Fox Plaza, etc.)? What the hell happened? I agree with Ant. Why aren't we getting the types of interesting, tall and impactful designs other cities are getting?

[montydawg]

Originally Posted by Ant131531

It's terrible. This is the first development in Midotwn this cycle I absoluetely abhor. It's everything wrong with Downtown during the 70s and 80s now being built in Midtown and it's not a surprise it's from Portman who loves to build his WORSE projects here and his BEST projects elsewhere. He's going to ruin Midtown and I can't believe people are okay with this.

Can you enumerate what items make this horrible? I'm assuming you are talking about the curb cuts, which the existing banks on the land required to make this project happen. What changes would you like to see to this project to accommodate the curb cuts the banks require and the parking that financing and office tenants would require in order to secure tenants for this building? I've worked for two companies in Midtown/Downtown, and the majority of people drove their cars from the suburbs to work in the location. How is Portman going to ruin Midtown?

[montydawg]

Originally Posted by Pemgin

Remember 10 years ago, when we were getting interesting proposals (Aquarius Tower, Mandarin Oriental, Fox Plaza, etc.)? What the hell happened?

The recession. We are back in reality on what is feasible. China and Dubai are big on trophy towers now and I've read that more human scale-able developments that promote livable cities are 'in' here in the U.S. now.

[cabasse]

Originally Posted by jwbab

In Portman's defense, the renderings presented are not intended to be a final, polished representation of how the project will look. It is still a work in progress. These are early designs to give the committee a general feel for the massing, street presence, elevations, site plan, traffic flow, etc., so they can make informed recommendations on the variances the developer is requesting. The architect admitted that, especially with respect to the parking podium, the renderings were incomplete and many of the design decisions have not been finalized.

that's a slight reprieve; as presented that design is pretty bad, specifically noting the parking podium.

[Pemgin]

Originally Posted by montydawg

The recession. We are back in reality on what is feasible. China and Dubai are big on trophy towers now and I've read that more human scale-able developments that promote livable cities are 'in' here in the U.S. now.

Other U.S. cities are getting trophy towers. We're getting Opus, which is cool, but it just seems like we're trailing peer cities, and even some smaller cities, when it comes to design and scale.

[Hokiehaven]

Originally Posted by cabasse

that's a slight reprieve; as presented that design is pretty bad, specifically noting the parking podium.

Agreed, but the hulking nature of it, though not shocking considering it's a Portman is disappointing, would be nice to see it have some aesthetic quality compared to a giant mass.

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by Pemgin

Remember 10 years ago, when we were getting interesting proposals (Aquarius Tower, Mandarin Oriental, Fox Plaza, etc.)? What the hell happened? I agree with Ant. Why aren't we getting the types of interesting, tall and impactful designs other cities are getting?

There is one striking difference and it should be very obvious - THEY WERE CONDOS.

[montydawg]

Originally Posted by Pemgin

Other U.S. cities are getting trophy towers. We're getting Opus, which is cool, but it just seems like we're trailing peer cities, and even some smaller cities, when it comes to design and scale.

I agree, it's fun to have trophy towers, but I think developers look at the mixed success of the Bank of America plaza which has a lot of trouble filling it's space. Perhaps it is the location (close to Peachtree Pine) or the bad street presence that causes this building issues. One of Atlanta's big draws for companies is it's cost competitiveness and I believe the smaller buildings are better suited for the tech/finance/backoffice uses that are moving to midtown versus the lawyer/professional office uses that the trophy towers promote. Also remember, Atlanta has several 'trophy towers' already, so they may just be building what is in demand now.

[cabasse]

^ it kind of blows my mind that some of the best designs of the last 5+ yrs are going up around buckhead (village) where highrise designs tended to follow more of an office park style before then. most of the parking podium designs are being masked in a better fashion than those in midtown, even. i hate to say it, but it seems like a lot of whats going up in midtown is blowing a huge opportunity to create our best urban neighborhood, considering the existing street grid and transit infrastructure there.

[atlwarrior]

Thanks Midtown Development committee for the comments on parking at 740 proposal.

[Ant131531]

Originally Posted by Pemgin

Remember 10 years ago, when we were getting interesting proposals (Aquarius Tower, Mandarin Oriental, Fox Plaza, etc.)? What the hell happened? I agree with Ant. Why aren't we getting the types of interesting, tall and impactful designs other cities are getting?

We got our best towers when Atlanta wasn't even a 3 million person metro yet. Now it's double the size and yet we're getting towers I expect a city the size/importance of Portland or Columbus to get.

I consider three things when looking at highrise developments: Design, Height, and Street presence. Generally, a tower needs to at least have one of these attributes for me to be okay with it. Most of the residential towers have at least either design or street presence or both so I don't mind them as much. A tower that has all three would be Lilli Midtown.

This tower on the other hand has none of the attributes and that's my biggest problem. If a tower is going to have a mediocre design, it better have lots of height or good street presence. If it's doesn't have height, it better have street presence or design. If it doesn't have good street presence(probably the most important attribute), it better have a good design or height.

[Pemgin]

I respect Portman for keeping Atlanta afloat and relevant during the intown exodus of 1960-1990, but if this is the best they can do, it'd be better if they just stopped developing in Atlanta altogether. Even their best buildings are deeply flawed.

[sbrptree]

Originally Posted by MdtwnATL

It's a Portman design. Not surprised. These are hulking, blah square blocks that ignore pedestrians. Hopefully folks speak out loudly against this. It should not be built as-is. It MUST address the street a hell of a lot better before anything is signed off on.

All good points. It's strange how Portman was caught up on the cylinder thing back in the 60s/70s (Westin Peachtree, Westin Bonaventure in LA etc), and now is caught up on the blocks. I think someone needs to tell him it's ok to mix shapes (yes I am not an architect but seems too much like following the lemmings rather than creating new and unique).

Regarding why all our buildings are low and squat versus tall....it's all cost! Mid-rises are cheaper to build structurally than high-rises and since land here is still relatively cheap, there is no reason to build tall. The 80s/90s were a different era here as the banks and others were in a race to show off their trophy towers. Coke once proposed building a new tall trophy tower, but then their financials took a hit and have never gone back up. My two cents...other thoughts from the peanut gallery?

[Street Advocate]

Originally Posted by AtlantaMustang

Yes there is. 2 retail slots with banks in them in the first tower, then 2 more in the second. Patio shown in the furthest to the left.

Just a point of clarification that only one of the banks sits where tower 1 is located. Would have been nice if the drive-thru for the banks ran north-south between the buildings and the parking garage instead of proposing a curb-cut on W. Peachtree.

[Street Advocate]

Originally Posted by cabasse

i hate to say it, but it seems like a lot of whats going up in midtown is blowing a huge opportunity to create our best urban neighborhood, considering the existing street grid and transit infrastructure there.

Unfortunately, I agree. Developments in Midtown are not building for the urban experience. Rather, they are building out of convenience and are encouraged to build out a faux pas of an "urban" experience through current zoning. Those that have to deal with the repercussions of the poorly planned neighborhoods the most are the residents, who are generally looking for something more out of their urban experience. I can only hope we learn from our mistakes before it is too late for the rest of Midtown, Downtown, Buckhead, the BeltLine, and throughout metro Atlanta.

[jpk1292000]

Originally Posted by Ant131531

We got our best towers when Atlanta wasn't even a 3 million person metro yet. Now it's double the size and yet we're getting towers I expect a city the size/importance of Portland or Columbus to get.

I consider three things when looking at highrise developments: Design, Height, and Street presence. Generally, a tower needs to at least have one of these attributes for me to be okay with it. Most of the residential towers have at least either design or street presence or both so I don't mind them as much. A tower that has all three would be Lilli Midtown.

This tower on the other hand has none of the attributes and that's my biggest problem. If a tower is going to have a mediocre design, it better have lots of height or good street presence. If it's doesn't have height, it better have street presence or design. If it doesn't have good street presence(probably the most important attribute), it better have a good design or height.

I agree with your frustrations around the 740 proposal. In the first rendering image, it almost looks like a stylized cartoon of a high-rise building.

But there are some really solid buildings going up this cycle. Lilili, Opus, the Selig proposal further north on W. Peachtree and Hanover Midtown.

That said, it is annoying that other cities in Atlanta's class or lower are getting really tall buildings out of this cycle. Philly, Pittsburgh, Denver, I believe. Even Nashville might have a new tallest. All cities with lesser job and population growth than Atlanta.

[Ant131531]

It's mindboggling that people are okay with this tower. The more I look at it, the more I hate it. Naturally as a development cycle churns on, you would expect the standards for the design of a highrise/skyscraper to be increasing, yet it seems to be decreasing for many people on the board.

Development for the sake of development is not good. It's how you get Peachtree Center all over again. I'd rather he just not build anything here and leave it for another developer even if it takes 10 years. That's how horrible this development truly is. I have never felt so strongly against a project in Midtown in the last 4 or 5 years this cycle has been going on.