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Old Posted Jan 23, 2007, 7:43 PM
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CAMPO delays vote on Phase 2 tollways

By Kate Miller Morton

AMERICAN-STATESMAN STAFF


Tuesday, January 23, 2007

Anti-toll road passions ran high at Monday night's meeting of the Capital Area Metropolitan Planning Organization, where board members ultimately postponed a vote on a proposed second wave of toll roads until summer at the earliest.

"We need to quit letting the tail wag the dog and having the (proposed) toll roads hold up other good projects," said state Sen. Kirk Watson, D-Austin, the newly elected chairman of the CAMPO board.


Photos:
..........................
Kelly West
AMERICAN-STATESMAN

(enlarge photo)
Toll road opponents, including, from left, Jimmy Gardner, Donna Whitlow and Stuart Nelson, packed a Capital Area Metropolitan Planning Organization meeting in Austin to make their voices heard.

(enlarge photo)
Kirk Watson Official led a task force that recommended reducing board membership to 18.
...................................

The board voted to remove the proposed toll roads from a larger package that included proposals for nontolled roads, public transit projects and bike and pedestrian paths. The board is scheduled to vote on those proposals next month.

The so-called Phase 2 toll roads aren't expected to come back to the board until the summer after a new task force reconsiders the issues and makes recommendations.

The second wave was approved by the CAMPO board in 2004, but after bitter dispute, support for the plan has plunged. Other task forces have since considered alternatives to toll roads, with mixed results.

The Phase 2 toll roads are sections of U.S. 183, Texas 71, U.S. 290 (in both East and Southwest Austin), and the proposed Texas 45 Southwest. There are already 41 miles of toll roads in the Austin area, including the Loop 1 extension, Texas 45 North and Texas 130, which opened recently. More are under construction.

Hundreds of people showed up at Monday's meeting, which was delayed by an hour because of traffic congestion. The often-hostile crowd booed Watson, and some held signs such as "Throw the bums out."

Conspiracy theories were suggested, and calls of fascism were heard.

Before voting on the toll plan, the board adopted recommendations by a Greater Austin Chamber of Commerce task force, led by Watson, that last month suggested trimming the number of board members from 23 to 18, including three legislators instead of 10.

The proposal also called for two new members representing small cities.

The report said streamlining the board would reduce distrust among members and could help dealings between urban and suburban members.

Changing the board would require the governments in the three-county CAMPO area to amend their agreement.

Under federal law, federal transportation funds cannot be used on a project unless it is in CAMPO's long-range transportation plan.

Funding for the Phase 2 projects has expired since the 2004 decision.

*************** It would take the creation of a local gasoline tax of about 17 cents a gallon to replace the money that would be brought in by the second round of toll roads, the Texas Department of Transportation said. ****************

kmorton@statesman.com; 445-3641

http://www.statesman.com/news/content/news/stories/local/01/23/23campo.html?COXnetJSessionIDbuild7=brQ3F2kNrtbkSqrf1rVZW1lKzMzFRrhnjmJDhk5WRwK5fxhY2M6T!904565299&UrAuth=`N`NUOaNWUbTTUWUXUVUZTZU`UWU]UVUZUcU^UcTYWVVZV&urcm=y
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  #2  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2007, 7:53 PM
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  #3  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2007, 8:29 PM
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Man i hate toll roads. I am sorry, but i refuse to use them, even here in Houston. It makes me sick to think that they would even consider putting them in other places. (San Antonio, Austin)...

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Old Posted Jan 23, 2007, 10:22 PM
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Tolls beat everything else

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Originally Posted by Complex01 View Post
Man i hate toll roads. I am sorry, but i refuse to use them, even here in Houston. It makes me sick to think that they would even consider putting them in other places. (San Antonio, Austin)...

Toll roads are the "least bad" way to fund roads by a landslide. Here's how we really fund them in Texas today, along with the disadvantages (in terms of fairness and efficiency):

Gas taxes - don't even come close to paying for all roads - assessed on city drivers and suburban drivers even though no city roads get money from the gas tax (only roads in the state highway system, which disproportionately serves suburbanites - most major arterials in the City of Austin, i.e., are not state highways and thus get none of this money - roads like Lamar (north of river), every numbered street, Burnet (south of 183), Enfield, etc.). The city driver gets screwed here; the suburban driver benefits. Not much disincentive to use heavily travelled or expensive roads.

Property and sales taxes - fill in the rest - these go not only to the major arterials mentioned above that aren't part of the state highway system, but also to fill in gaps even in state highway funding (bonds floated by city/county governments, repaid by property/sales tax, are often used as 'donations' to TXDOT to get highway projects built). You pay these whether you drive a lot, a little, or at all. The city resident (thanks to much higher property taxes) gets screwed here; the suburban resident benefits. No incentive to avoid using roads (you paid for them already; you don't pay any more to drive on them).

Tolls - very small for now - these could be better (if they varied by time of day) but are a million times better than the combo gas tax / general fund system we have now, because PEOPLE WHO DON'T DRIVE ON THE ROAD DON'T HAVE TO PAY FOR IT, PERIOD.

More at a couple of crackplog posts I made (scroll to the bottom and work up backwards)
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  #5  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2007, 12:28 AM
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Toll roads are the least efficient way to fund roads. You have to spend money to build toll booths. Then you have to pay people to staff them. Then you have to pay police to track down violators. And worst of all, you turn an interstate into a surface street because traffic has to stop anyway to pay the toll. Gas taxes are the best way to fund roads because only the user pays, people that have heavier vehicles pay more, and people that use efficient vehicles pay less.
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Old Posted Jan 24, 2007, 1:06 AM
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Originally Posted by tennreb View Post
Toll roads are the least efficient way to fund roads. You have to spend money to build toll booths. Then you have to pay people to staff them. Then you have to pay police to track down violators. And worst of all, you turn an interstate into a surface street because traffic has to stop anyway to pay the toll. Gas taxes are the best way to fund roads because only the user pays, people that have heavier vehicles pay more, and people that use efficient vehicles pay less.
I never stop to pay tolls, I use the electronic tag and go under the gantry at 70+.

How are gas taxes the best? Doesn't that tax people who may never use the highway they are paying for?
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  #7  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2007, 5:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M1EK View Post
Toll roads are the "least bad" way to fund roads by a landslide. Here's how we really fund them in Texas today, along with the disadvantages (in terms of fairness and efficiency):

Gas taxes - don't even come close to paying for all roads - assessed on city drivers and suburban drivers even though no city roads get money from the gas tax (only roads in the state highway system, which disproportionately serves suburbanites - most major arterials in the City of Austin, i.e., are not state highways and thus get none of this money - roads like Lamar (north of river), every numbered street, Burnet (south of 183), Enfield, etc.). The city driver gets screwed here; the suburban driver benefits. Not much disincentive to use heavily travelled or expensive roads.

Property and sales taxes - fill in the rest - these go not only to the major arterials mentioned above that aren't part of the state highway system, but also to fill in gaps even in state highway funding (bonds floated by city/county governments, repaid by property/sales tax, are often used as 'donations' to TXDOT to get highway projects built). You pay these whether you drive a lot, a little, or at all. The city resident (thanks to much higher property taxes) gets screwed here; the suburban resident benefits. No incentive to avoid using roads (you paid for them already; you don't pay any more to drive on them).

Tolls - very small for now - these could be better (if they varied by time of day) but are a million times better than the combo gas tax / general fund system we have now, because PEOPLE WHO DON'T DRIVE ON THE ROAD DON'T HAVE TO PAY FOR IT, PERIOD.

More at a couple of crackplog posts I made (scroll to the bottom and work up backwards)
I don't really have a problem with Toll roads, and the above logic makes sense, but I'm wondering if it is more complicated than that. I'm wondering if there is some community benefit by providng mobility around the city, even if other people are paying for that mobility. Sort of like school taxes. People get screwed if they don't have children, yet it benefits socieity as a whole.
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Old Posted Jan 24, 2007, 6:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M1EK View Post

Tolls - very small for now - these could be better (if they varied by time of day) but are a million times better than the combo gas tax / general fund system we have now, because PEOPLE WHO DON'T DRIVE ON THE ROAD DON'T HAVE TO PAY FOR IT, PERIOD.

More at a couple of crackplog posts I made (scroll to the bottom and work up backwards)
"YAWN - YAWN"

I hear it all the time, "if you dont way to pay dont drive on it". You know i dont were the in hell all the money goes in the state? Schools, nope they dont have it. Clean air, HA. Hell TAX the hell out of the gas, maybe people wont drive no more. Point is, Toll Roads are just another private corporate, idea to make money.

See that ===>

Its a gift, pay for your "Toll Road"

Just being nice...
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  #9  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2007, 2:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAM View Post
I don't really have a problem with Toll roads, and the above logic makes sense, but I'm wondering if it is more complicated than that. I'm wondering if there is some community benefit by providng mobility around the city, even if other people are paying for that mobility. Sort of like school taxes. People get screwed if they don't have children, yet it benefits socieity as a whole.
Generally, the people who study road subsidies admit a small positive externality for overall mobility - very very small. Having to do with the ability to run buses and trucks, mainly.

Road warriors like to try to get you to believe that the 6 lanes on Braker Lane, for instance, are essential to getting truck deliveries (one of those positive externalities - if you don't have a car and like to eat). It's very quickly countered by the fact that in countries without excessive suburban driving subsidies (like England), deliveries still happen and buses still run. You really only need 2 lanes essentially everywhere but the couple largest arteries in the hugest cities if it weren't for private automobiles; and you in your private automobile are more of a negative externality generator than anything else.
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Old Posted Jan 24, 2007, 2:40 PM
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Originally Posted by tennreb View Post
Toll roads are the least efficient way to fund roads. You have to spend money to build toll booths. Then you have to pay people to staff them. Then you have to pay police to track down violators. And worst of all, you turn an interstate into a surface street because traffic has to stop anyway to pay the toll. Gas taxes are the best way to fund roads because only the user pays, people that have heavier vehicles pay more, and people that use efficient vehicles pay less.
Did you read my post at all? Here in central Austin, most major arterials are prohibited by state law from receiving state gas tax money (and CAMPO makes sure all federal gas tax money for roads goes to state highways too). Meaning, when I drive the 5 mile round-trip to Whole Foods, I pay gas taxes, but I'm not a "user" of the gas tax funded roadway system.
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  #11  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2007, 3:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Complex01 View Post
"YAWN - YAWN"

I hear it all the time, "if you dont way to pay dont drive on it". You know i dont were the in hell all the money goes in the state? Schools, nope they dont have it. Clean air, HA. Hell TAX the hell out of the gas, maybe people wont drive no more. Point is, Toll Roads are just another private corporate, idea to make money.

See that ===>

Its a gift, pay for your "Toll Road"

Just being nice...
AMEN Brother-

You Pro-Toll Road people need to get your minds right.

Having your movement tracked and taxed isn't Freedom - PERIOD
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  #12  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2007, 10:29 PM
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You Pro-Toll Road people need to get your minds right.
Actually, I kind of resent that remark. People who are "pro-toll road" are typically those who are more generally "pro-transportation", and in the current funding environment, there is simply an imbalance in funding to provide for the transportation needs of today, much less tomorrow.

As a more rational "pro-toll road" person, I believe strongly in its ability to finance construction of needed infrastructure sooner and in a proactive way. Waiting for funds from a source, be it the TxDOT general fund or from the feds, is a long and tedious process, which relegates entire regions to simply "accepting what they can get" and ultimately constructing an infrastructure in a reactive way. Precisely the wrong time that infrastructure needs to be in place.

This does not, however, include me in the binary, black-and-white thinking that this is the only way to fund transportation projects here in Austin. It's not. IMHO, a properly funded anything substantial takes a balance of resources from all over, whether the sources of the funds themselves or the mechanisms to obtain these funds.

This would include a combination of gas taxes, user fees such as tolls, and other mechanisms in which Texas is a national leader in exploring. (which is precisely why I moved here...disclosure: my current employment is directly related to the current Central Texas Turnpike System) This would also include a combination of different mechanisms for moving people: tolled expressways, federally-funded expressways, state-funded highways, locally-funded arterials and streets, etc. on tires as well as subsidized (and for-profit, presuming such a model could make business sense to attract the private sector) mass transportation such as buses, streetcars, light rail, commuter rail, and high-speed rail. And let's not forget about local provisions for personal transportation: well-designed pedestrian and bicycle facilities all contribute to the transportation "equation" too. Additional coordination could be employed such as effective ITS, rolling business days, etc. that can add efficiencies to the system.

I could go on and on. But the bottom line is that when you relegate such a complex situation of "transportation" as a disdain for "pro-toll road people", you are actually part of the problem, further polarizing the populace into making overly-simplistic assumptions of people and their motivations. I applaud your enthusiasm for finding solutions though, but I just am taken aback by your execution of those who are working to create just a small part of the overall solution.
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  #13  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2007, 6:10 AM
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^^^^^ Well Said. ^^^^^
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  #14  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2007, 3:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Mikey711MN View Post
This would include a combination of gas taxes, user fees such as tolls, and other mechanisms in which Texas is a national leader in exploring. (which is precisely why I moved here...disclosure: my current employment is directly related to the current Central Texas Turnpike System) This would also include a combination of different mechanisms for moving people: tolled expressways, federally-funded expressways, state-funded highways, locally-funded arterials and streets, etc. on tires as well as subsidized (and for-profit, presuming such a model could make business sense to attract the private sector) mass transportation such as buses, streetcars, light rail, commuter rail, and high-speed rail. And let's not forget about local provisions for personal transportation: well-designed pedestrian and bicycle facilities all contribute to the transportation "equation" too. Additional coordination could be employed such as effective ITS, rolling business days, etc. that can add efficiencies to the system.
First, I'm going to make the charitable assumption that "more rational pro-toll people" wasn't a swipe at me.

Second, your statement above sounds awfully nice. Unfortunately, we don't live in that world - where TXDOT cares as much about urban residents as suburbanites (or rural developers); we instead live in a world where TXDOT just cut off STP/TEA grants for bike/ped projects (even though TXDOT's role is minimal; mainly oversight and choosing to direct _federal_ gas tax money); and we live in a world where the effect of the funding regime you describe above is a massive subsidy to suburban roadbuilding from both urban drivers and urban non-drivers.

Start here at the bottom and work your way up. Texas is, in fact, the least progressive state in the country when it comes to supporting alternate modes of transportation with actual dollars, but even with good old roads for the benefit of drivers, they still manage to stick it to the cities big-time. (Cities donate property tax money for state highway projects in addition to having to pay for a much larger share of their major arterial network than do suburban areas; and no state gas tax money and essentially no federal gas tax money flows back to make up the difference).

Once you've digested that, try this one for fun: TXDOT prevents other entities from building sidewalks later on, even at their own expense.

And then, of course, there's the generic set of issues with frontage road design, that being that they make it nearly impossible to deliver good transit service, and are pedestrian-and-bike-hostile.

Neither of these are "old" problems either. The latest freeway upgrade to US 183 (further out than either of these two examples) perpetuates both problems; first, a lack of sidewalks (and even of adequate right-of-way set aside for future sidewalks), and second, a lack of crossings - at one point, 2 miles between (way too far to walk if you got dropped off at a bus stop on one side of the highway and your destination was actually on the other side).

So, gosh, I hope this new blood at TXDOT represented by folks like you is going to take a stab at moving into the 1990s, at least, like other suburban-dominated but not urban-hostile states have managed to do. But let's not oversell where we are today in the process, OK?
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  #15  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2007, 3:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey711MN View Post
Actually, I kind of resent that remark. People who are "pro-toll road" are typically those who are more generally "pro-transportation", and in the current funding environment, there is simply an imbalance in funding to provide for the transportation needs of today, much less tomorrow.

As a more rational "pro-toll road" person, I believe strongly in its ability to finance construction of needed infrastructure sooner and in a proactive way. Waiting for funds from a source, be it the TxDOT general fund or from the feds, is a long and tedious process, which relegates entire regions to simply "accepting what they can get" and ultimately constructing an infrastructure in a reactive way. Precisely the wrong time that infrastructure needs to be in place.

This does not, however, include me in the binary, black-and-white thinking that this is the only way to fund transportation projects here in Austin. It's not. IMHO, a properly funded anything substantial takes a balance of resources from all over, whether the sources of the funds themselves or the mechanisms to obtain these funds.

This would include a combination of gas taxes, user fees such as tolls, and other mechanisms in which Texas is a national leader in exploring. (which is precisely why I moved here...disclosure: my current employment is directly related to the current Central Texas Turnpike System) This would also include a combination of different mechanisms for moving people: tolled expressways, federally-funded expressways, state-funded highways, locally-funded arterials and streets, etc. on tires as well as subsidized (and for-profit, presuming such a model could make business sense to attract the private sector) mass transportation such as buses, streetcars, light rail, commuter rail, and high-speed rail. And let's not forget about local provisions for personal transportation: well-designed pedestrian and bicycle facilities all contribute to the transportation "equation" too. Additional coordination could be employed such as effective ITS, rolling business days, etc. that can add efficiencies to the system.

I could go on and on. But the bottom line is that when you relegate such a complex situation of "transportation" as a disdain for "pro-toll road people", you are actually part of the problem, further polarizing the populace into making overly-simplistic assumptions of people and their motivations. I applaud your enthusiasm for finding solutions though, but I just am taken aback by your execution of those who are working to create just a small part of the overall solution.


I'm not "Pro-Toll Road" I am "Pro-Transportation" - That is classic Orwellian Doublespeak
You are a good citizen Mikey! You could have inner-party membership someday - j/k

This issue is black and white. This is America - "The Land Of the Free"

There is a romanticism in this country with hopping in one's car and hittin' the open road.

I will say it again:
You Pro-Toll Road people need to get your minds right.

Having your movement tracked and taxed IS. NOT. FREEDOM. - PERIOD

If there is an "Imbalance in Funding" it is because it was designed that way.
The tolling controversy is an example of the Hegelian Dialectic at work. Thesis - Antithesis = Synthesis.

The Problem Reaction Solution Paradigm (The Hegelian Dialectic)
1) The government creates or exploits a problem blaming it on others
2) The people react by asking the government for help willing to give up their rights
3) The government offers the solution that was planned long before the crisis

Mikey-
I would sincerely like to reccommend 2 different resources for you to review:

1) Aaron Russo's documentary- America: Freedom To Fascism
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...o+facism&hl=en
Aaron Russo is the award winning producer of the Eddie Murphy/Dan Akroyd film Trading places.
The film is an amazing treatise on the importance of freedom.

2) The Alex Jones Radio Program - http://www.infowars.com/
Click on "Listen Now: Infowars Main Stream"
Alex will also be speaking in Person on Feb. 1st - And you can bet that the subject of toll roads will come up.

Last edited by TDoss; Jan 25, 2007 at 3:20 PM.
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  #16  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2007, 3:16 PM
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^^^^^ Well Said. ^^^^^
The tolling of public roads, the selling of American infrastructure to foreign countries and private corporations, The Security and Prosperity Partnership, The NAFTA Superhighway, The Trans-Texas Corridor, The North American Union – ALL OF THESE THINGS ARE INTERCONNECTED and they are designed to destroy America.

The desire to track and tax one’s movement as you travel is all part of the One World Government “Beast System” of control.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwIg8RLEuM0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAeEc23_7Ig

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRh4P...elated&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCXc8...elated&search=

http://www.spp.gov/

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0050323-1.html

http://www.nascocorridor.com/


www.cfr.org/content/publications/attachments/NorthAmerica_TF_final.pdf


http://www.kcsmartport.com/
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  #17  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2007, 4:40 PM
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TDoss, I'm so low on the totem pole my dog doesn't even care where I'm at. I'm sure the government doesn't give a rats butt. But I do like listening to Alex, he can be very entertaining and somewhat informative. Hopefully big brother doesn't see this
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  #18  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2007, 5:18 PM
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TDoss, I retract my statement about applauding your enthusiasm for finding solutions, because clearly you have none.

I would also respectfully recommend that you refrain from conducting any sort of cash-less transactions, filing or even paying taxes, registering your vehicle, buying property, using the internet, and just about anything else that can associate you with a traceable identification. Using your argument, these things are all in place to destroy America too, taking your freedom right along with it.

To avoid a total threadjack, again, I'll restate that tollways are part of an integrated solution to transportation needs. I am a proponent of implementing this system as much as I am of future development of others as well (if this makes me guilty of Orwellian doublespeak, well, so be it...I've been called worse). Does Austin need to start implementing other components to create a better comprehensive transportation solution? Absolutely.

But again, I remain unconvinced that even this would satisfy you and your claims that somehow tracking your movement (read: eliminating your freedoms) is the ultimate interest of Big Brother. Should I ever believe that all of this revolves around some greater movement to bring down the country, if not the world, I'll surely post to the general discussion area of this forum soliciting your advice for tin-foil recommendations. Because I've bought a lot of stuff without cash, I pay taxes, I own a home and a car, and by virtue of this post, I browse the internet. They've got a lot of s#!t on me.
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  #19  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2007, 7:51 PM
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If the government needed to track someone they sure don't need tollways to do it. If they're looking for you, they'll find you.
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