LOS ANGELES | Transportation News & Discussion

[Quixote]

The Little Tokyo station already sort of serves the northern Arts District (SCI-Arc, Wurstküche, etc.); building another subway station would be redundant and a huge waste of precious money. The southern Arts District would be served by the 7th/Alameda station and (hopefully) a Red/Purple Line extension.

The DTC-1 is actually very forward-thinking, as it would bridge the gap between Los Angeles and Alameda Streets and set the stage for an extension farther west. A station at 4th/San Pedro could accelerate the gentrification of the Toy District.

[numble]

Originally Posted by Illithid Dude

I personally still think that the best option is going to Union Square from the Arts District. A separate subway station could always be built that connects to the Little Tokyo arts district station via an underground concourse. Of course, a more forward thinking transportation agency would have known that the Arts District station would be an interchange and designed it as such to minimize potential future impacts...

The Regional Connector is receiving Federal New Starts funds and is already over-budget and any further costs or delays in the opening time would have impacted the ability to score well on receiving New Starts funds or receive the funds already granted. They already removed the 5th/Flower station due to cost concerns.

The EIR was completed in 2012, and the WSAB was just supposed to be a southern bus line at the time. Even in 2016 after Measure M was passed, there was not supposed to be a downtown component to WSAB until 2041 (this is why the southern alignment is mostly set in stone already, while they are spending most of their time on figuring out the northern alignment).

Given the above, and the fact that some options like the DTC options have attractive features that do not use the Little Tokyo station, it doesn't seem very fair to say they should have designed the Little Tokyo station to accommodate a potential second subway.

[Quixote]

I can't imagine how much more the DTC options would cost... should me rename it "27 by '28"?

[numble]

Originally Posted by Quixote

I can't imagine how much more the DTC options would cost... should me rename it "27 by '28"?

There were rough estimates for the prior options (page 24):
https://metro.legistar.com/View.ashx...9-5BB05DC1B61D

West Bank 3 (1.7 miles underground) - $4.316 billion
Pacific/Alameda (1.4 miles underground) - $4.421 billion
Pacific/Vignes (1.6 miles underground) - $4.416 billion

DTC probably costs more, but maybe not much more? How many additional underground length would be needed?

There probably is about $2 billion available for this project from Measure R and Measure M when you include adjustments for inflation and contingency.

They probably are seeking additional funding via a P3, Federal New Starts or the planned infrastructure bill, SB1, Cap and Trade, maybe even future ExpressLanes revenue. Under the Measure M plan, they had said they expected to get $2.3 billion in funding outside of Measure R and M, and that was before a new federal infrastructure bill or SB1 was considered possible sources of funding.

[Quixote]

It's the introduction of 2-3 subway stations (in the middle of DT, no less) that will really inflate the cost.

[numble]

Originally Posted by Quixote

It's the introduction of 2-3 subway stations (in the middle of DT, no less) that will really inflate the cost.

The West Bank 3 option had 2 subway stations (Arts District and Little Tokyo). So, if comparing costs of DTC1 to the West Bank 3 option, it is really the introduction of 1 subway station and the extra tunneling to get to that station.

[bzcat]

ULA has helpful graphics... I'm going to link to the actual article too.

http://urbanize.la/post/metro-consid...nta-ana-branch



So Downtown NIMBY is resisting elevated Alameda alignment options, which means Metro is going to look into ending the line to 5th/Flower (or 4th/Flower?) where the "missing" Expo/Blue line station would have been located. I take that to mean that if Downtown Transit Core #1 (black line) is chosen, Metro will have to build a transfer station at 5th/Flower instead of just a terminal station. One minor quibble... No transfer station to Red/Purple line at Pershing Square - although not that hard to envision an extra stop near 5th/Hill.

The geometry of ending the line at 5th/Flower also sets up nicely for further extension of this line towards West LA or Northeast LA. I can see three equally good option of extending the line:

1. From 5th/Flower, head west across 110 freeway, then turn southwest towards Pico Union, and then west on Pico Blvd towards Mid City, then on Venice Blvd to Venice Beach.
2. From 5th/Flower, head west across 110 freeway, then turn northwest towards Echo Park, then Sunset Blvd thru Silver Lake, and then Santa Monica Blvd to Hollywood and beyond (Century City perhaps?)
3. From 5th/Flower, head west across 110 freeway, then turn northwest towards Echo Park, then Alvarado St/Glendale Blvd to Atwater Village and Downtown Glendale.

So if you can't tell already, I like the idea of ending the line at Financial District about 1000 times better than Union Station. It is one of those times that NIMBY intransigence is going to give us a better outcome... (!)

[northbay]

The problem with the Downtown Transit Core alignments is that there is no direct transfer to the Purple/Red Lines.

The Arts District option would work as long as the Purple/Red lines are extended, but it would be nice to have a station at Washington to provide a transfer to the Blue Line. The map leaves it ambiguous whether there will be a station there.

Honestly, the Alameda St options seem best with regards to connectivity since they will all connect with both heavy rail and both light rail lines - I’m not from the area so I’m just going by the map and could be completely wrong. I’m interested in what you locals have to say.

Of course there’s other factors to be considered, such as future growth potential mentioned by bzcat. Built environment, blah blah

[DJM19]

I think the downtown core option 1 would be great, but yeah it needs to connect with the red/purple perhaps more than it needs to connect with the blue/gold. Perhaps a station around Grand with connection tunnel to flower and to pershing square stations. Too long?

[WrightCONCEPT]

The Magenta colored dashed line is the West Santa Ana Corridor connecting to a 6th Street/Arts District terminal because what is the point of routing it through DTLA where a transfer to the Red/Purple Lines will be needed anyways why not save some $$$ and create the connection from the start.

The Dark Blue dashed line is a tunnel or elevated via 11th or 12th Streets to replace the Washington Blvd street running Blue Line and will serve South Park/LA Live through the Fashion District where it connects back to the Blue Line Right of Way and the Washington Blvd Station. If routed smartly this can be a single route from South Park to Arts District and then up to Union Station so that longer distance Foothill Gold Line trains can end in DTLA.

[numble]

LA Metro received $58.4 million out of one of SB1's funding pots for 2018 (the Local Partnership Program). It should get similar amounts per year from this program, as this represents funding from a population-based formulaic program—that would be about an extra $600 million in funding by 2028:

http://www.catc.ca.gov/programs/sb1/...ted-013118.pdf

- $23.941 million for the West Santa Ana Branch Transit Corridor
- $19.745 million for the Green Line Extension (Redondo Beach-Torrance)
- $14.8 million for the Willowbrook/Rosa Parks Station Mezzanine Improvements project

50% of the Local Partnership Program is awarded based on the population-based formula and 50% will be awarded based on competitive projects. LA Metro is seeking funds for the Airport Connector and Orange Line improvements ($230 million total requested) for this round of the competitive grants, which have not yet been awarded. If it can get $230 million yearly from the competitive grants, that’s $2.3 billion extra funding over the next decade that was not expected when Measure M was passed.

[NSMP]

I have a post up about the new WSAB alternatives and why I favor the DTC-1 alternative https://redlinereader.wordpress.com/...ta-ana-branch/

[numble]

LA Metro has also requested funding from another program that is funded by SB1, the Transit and Intercity Rail Capital Program, which has $2.4 billion available for ($1.4 billion funded by SB1, $1 billion funded by Cap and Trade). Only $2.4 billion is available statewide, but LA Metro has requested a total of $1.422 billion to fund the following projects in the next 5 years:
- Gold Line LRT to Montclair
- East San Fernando Valley Transit Corridor
- West Santa Ana Light Rail Transit Corridor
- Green Line Light Rail Extension to Torrance
- Orange/Red Line to Gold Line Bus Rapid Transit Connector (North Hollywood to Pasadena)
- Vermont Transit Corridor

https://calsta.ca.gov/wp-content/upl...mary-Final.pdf

[NSMP]

Originally Posted by WrightCONCEPT

The Magenta colored dashed line is the West Santa Ana Corridor connecting to a 6th Street/Arts District terminal because what is the point of routing it through DTLA where a transfer to the Red/Purple Lines will be needed anyways why not save some $$$ and create the connection from the start.

The Dark Blue dashed line is a tunnel or elevated via 11th or 12th Streets to replace the Washington Blvd street running Blue Line and will serve South Park/LA Live through the Fashion District where it connects back to the Blue Line Right of Way and the Washington Blvd Station. If routed smartly this can be a single route from South Park to Arts District and then up to Union Station so that longer distance Foothill Gold Line trains can end in DTLA.

I’m confused. South Park to AD to Union Station?

[NSMP]

Anyway I disagree with the argument about saving money by going to the Arts District. We’re talking about a difference of... half a mile? The average commuter would save time with a Pershing Square transfer over an Arts District transfer.

[NSMP]

Originally Posted by numble

LA Metro has also requested funding from another program that is funded by SB1, the Transit and Intercity Rail Capital Program, which has $2.4 billion available for ($1.4 billion funded by SB1, $1 billion funded by Cap and Trade). Only $2.4 billion is available statewide, but LA Metro has requested a total of $1.422 billion to fund the following projects in the next 5 years:
- Gold Line LRT to Montclair
- East San Fernando Valley Transit Corridor
- West Santa Ana Light Rail Transit Corridor
- Green Line Light Rail Extension to Torrance
- Orange/Red Line to Gold Line Bus Rapid Transit Connector (North Hollywood to Pasadena)
- Vermont Transit Corridor

https://calsta.ca.gov/wp-content/upl...mary-Final.pdf

Good stuff, thanks for sharing!

[WrightCONCEPT]

Originally Posted by NSMP

Anyway I disagree with the argument about saving money by going to the Arts District. We’re talking about a difference of... half a mile? The average commuter would save time with a Pershing Square transfer over an Arts District transfer.

Half a mile? What are you talking about, if it goes straight to connect to the Arts District to connect to the Red/Purple Line then it will save more time overall and save about $1.5B - 2.0B.

You couple this with the fact that the line will share part of its service with the Blue Line, we are essentially paying more to do the same things which can be re-purposed to do the actual upgrades the system needs like South Park station and other improvements to replace the Washington Blvd surface section of the Blue Line that many folks in here raved and moaned about in July 2017 with the Pico Station upgrade discussion on this very thread.

https://urbanize.la/post/looking-met...-flower-street

Originally Posted by NSMP

I’m confused. South Park to AD to Union Station?

I am looking at this in phases, get the line to Arts District with the Red/Purple Transfer, save funds to either continue the line to Union Station to connect with the Foothill Gold Line and Metrolink or build the Blue Line grade separation from South Park to Washington where we get more utility out of the line compared to DTCore 1 which is duplicative with much of the Regional Connector.

[NSMP]

1.9 miles from Washington to 6th/Santa Fe, 2.6 miles from Washington to Pershing Square. And there is no way that that saves more time over all. Pershing Square is further west, and de facto better for commuters to the westside. But it’s also one stop from the civic center and financial district. Arts District is only faster if you assume people are trying to get to Union Station or north, and I don’t believe that’s true.

[WrightCONCEPT]

Originally Posted by NSMP

1.9 miles from Washington to 6th/Santa Fe, 2.6 miles from Washington to Pershing Square. And there is no way that that saves more time over all. Pershing Square is further west, and de facto better for commuters to the westside. But it’s also one stop from the civic center and financial district. Arts District is only faster if you assume people are trying to get to Union Station or north, and I don’t believe that’s true.

Ok now I understand in terms of distance which makes that closer to 3/4 of a mile between the options or one mile longer than other past alternatives of underground tunnels and at least one or two more stations which makes that the $1.5 to $2B increase in project costs (going off of the nearly $900M/mile for Regional Connector.

It saves more time if they are already trying to CONNECT to the Red/Purple Lines or have destinations on the Red/Purple Line.

Isn't that the point of going to Central City/Pershing Square/Financial District Core to serve those riders, many of whom can simply transfer to the Blue Line which can be made at Washington or Vernon stations?

So I'm looking at this from a cost-benefit purpose.

Right now DTCore 1 has the poorest cost benefit if the service is shared with the Blue Line. It's only saving grace is as many others have pointed out if it is extended West, but is there a study ready and available on this to connect to? I don't think there is...and if there is one, it would have to look at this in conjunction of other ideas shared on this forum such as Vermont Corridor HRT and when that occurs there will need to be a new entry into Downtown LA for those Red Line Passengers because the Purple Line will have that service all to its self.

[bzcat]

I think ridership will be higher if the line ends in financial district vs 6th/Santa Fe. And transfer at Pershing is going to save time vs at 6th/Santa Fe as it will bypass the 3rd st station in the yard where red/purple will have speed restrictions and the dogleg thru Union Station. I’m guessing someone going from Artesia to Century City is going to save maybe 5 minutes with transfer at Pershing.

Financial district also has further extension possibilities that both Union Station and 6th/santa fe precludes.

And lastly, financial district terminal adds that 2nd downtown core link for Blue line that is not shared with Expo that we’ve talked about for years. It allows for more capacity into where most jobs are located in downtown.