Historical Winnipeg discussion

[esquire]

It doesn't bother me that they never built the second tower in TD Place, but it does bother me greatly that they demolished this beauty of a building when it wasn't even standing in the way of 201 Portage:



source: Winnipeg Tribune Archives, umanitoba.ca

[1ajs]

never herd of this doc befor interesting to bad its for students only subscription it seems
https://www.nfb.ca/film/kind_of_family/

great shot looking up the bike path in juba park

[1ajs]

60's winnipeg view

[esquire]

^ Awesome find!

[trueviking]

That is amazing. Look at that residential neighbourhood between graham and broadway.

[BAKGUY]

Originally Posted by 1ajs

never herd of this doc befor interesting to bad its for students only subscription it seems
https://www.nfb.ca/film/kind_of_family/

great shot looking up the bike path in juba park

I believe it was on later shown CBC more than 20 years ago?

[wardlow]

Incredible view! Right before the highrise boom of the late 1960s and early '70s; when the McArthur/Childs Building was still the tallest office building in the city. And Osborne North was still lined with billboards, with no Memorial Park.

I sometimes wonder what it must have been like to live in Winnipeg in the late 1950s and early '60s. Aside from a few architecture students, no one cared about the gritty old buildings, but there was still so little development downtown, even as post-war growth and prosperity was well underway. I mean, everyone still shopped and worked downtown, but not because they necessarily loved it. I wonder if people were bothered or embarrassed by, or worried about the outdated state of the city. Or maybe it seemed normal and fine, and no one cared that the heart of the business district had crystalized 45 years before.

[Curmudgeon]

That is a fantastic find. Must be the early 60s as what appears to be a completed Norquay Bldg. is in the image and it was finished in 1960. Also note the Red Ensign on the tail. Looks to be late March or perhaps early April.

With a population of about 480,000 Winnipeg was still solidly in place as Canada's 4th largest metropolitan area, well ahead of western upstarts Edmonton and Calgary. The city proper had peaked at 265,000, which means about 55% of the population lived in the inner city then, compared with under 25% in 2016.

By the early 60s, Winnipeg had been more or less stagnant for four decades. The Bay opened in 1926 and the Federal Building in 1936, and there were a few modern constructs such as the new Post Office, the 1959 Great West Life Building and the aforementioned Norquay Bldg., but much of downtown was little changed from the World War I era. Polo Park had opened, though a much smaller mall than now, but otherwise there were no suburban malls or big box stores. Downtown retail was still very much thriving. The oldest Boomers were just finishing high school and crime was at or close to all-time lows. At that time, safer than the "good old" days. Culturally, the early 60s resembled the 50s much more than the later 60s. It was about 1964 when a change was distinctly felt.

It was the height of post-war modernist optimism. Within a few decades there would be flying cars and people would have so much leisure time they wouldn't know what to do with it. There would be no poverty, hunger or disease. What was old was not very much valued, in fact the zeitgeist of the times was essentially a rejection of the past; there was nothing retro about those times. While today the radio stations are playing music 30, 40 or even 50 years old, in 1960 music that old would have been considered ancient. People wanted progress, progress, progress, and complained about the dirty appearance of the city and all of the overhead wires. Despite rather modest population growth in the 60s, much of today's infrastructure dates from that era, such as the St. Vital Bridge, Route 90, etc. Nothing at the time seemed impossible.

Economically, in North America at least, they were the best times ever known. By the late 70s, modernism was widely considered a failure and economic decline was palpable. Winnipeg would rapidly decline relative to other cities in Canada and reach its nadir in the 1990s.

[Curmudgeon]

When I wrote stagnant for four decades, I was referring to downtown and the inner city. The suburbs had seen a population and construction explosion after 1945.

[trueviking]

[esquire]

Originally Posted by wardlow

I sometimes wonder what it must have been like to live in Winnipeg in the late 1950s and early '60s. Aside from a few architecture students, no one cared about the gritty old buildings, but there was still so little development downtown, even as post-war growth and prosperity was well underway. I mean, everyone still shopped and worked downtown, but not because they necessarily loved it. I wonder if people were bothered or embarrassed by, or worried about the outdated state of the city. Or maybe it seemed normal and fine, and no one cared that the heart of the business district had crystalized 45 years before.

I don't think Winnipeg was too far off from other Canadian, or at least western Canadian, cities in that regard. It does seem that they generally went through early 20th century boom periods and then only sporadic bursts of development until the 1960s when it all really started to explode with the modern highrise boom. Even Toronto's skyline in 1960 wasn't that wildly different from 1920, whereas by 1975 it would have progressed dramatically.

But yes, considering Winnipeg's relative size and importance, it is a little surprising how little of significance was built between WWI and the 1960s boom period... once you get past a few buildings near Memorial Boulevard (HBC, Auditorium, Winnipeg Clinic, Mall Hotel, Great West Life), there wasn't all that much.

[drew]

Based on what I have been told by my in-laws and family friends who grew up in the Centennial and Wolseley areas respectively, beginning in the late 50's and progressing through the 60's was rapid middle class flight from the inner city areas of Winnipeg.

People of my parents generation (really early baby boomers) who grew up in Winnipeg seem to have kept a certain bitterness towards these areas of Winnipeg that they watched deteriorate first hand.

Wolseley is definitely on the upswing, but you would never know it if you talked to my wife's parents!

[BigG]

Originally Posted by trueviking

Nice. Perfect "that was then, this is now" capture.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by drew

Based on what I have been told by my in-laws and family friends who grew up in the Centennial and Wolseley areas respectively, beginning in the late 50's and progressing through the 60's was rapid middle class flight from the inner city areas of Winnipeg.

People of my parents generation (really early baby boomers) who grew up in Winnipeg seem to have kept a certain bitterness towards these areas of Winnipeg that they watched deteriorate first hand.

Wolseley is definitely on the upswing, but you would never know it if you talked to my wife's parents!

I agree, that decline really does seem as though it happened over the course of one generation. And there is no question to me that the people most embittered about downtown/central Winnipeg is that cohort you mentioned... sort of the late 50s, 60-somethings group who came of age in the dying days of downtown dominance. They're the ones most likely to live in the outer reaches of suburbia and wear the fact that they never come downtown as some kind of badge of honour.

[wardlow]

Originally Posted by esquire

I don't think Winnipeg was too far off from other Canadian, or at least western Canadian, cities in that regard. It does seem that they generally went through early 20th century boom periods and then only sporadic bursts of development until the 1960s when it all really started to explode with the modern highrise boom. Even Toronto's skyline in 1960 wasn't that wildly different from 1920, whereas by 1975 it would have progressed dramatically.

But yes, considering Winnipeg's relative size and importance, it is a little surprising how little of significance was built between WWI and the 1960s boom period... once you get past a few buildings near Memorial Boulevard (HBC, Auditorium, Winnipeg Clinic, Mall Hotel, Great West Life), there wasn't all that much.

That’s true, I suppose. And even when you look at photos of Manhattan’s Financial District and Midtown skylines from the early 1960s, it still hadn’t changed significantly since 1930 or so. I think the difference for Winnipeg would be that there wasn’t much to show for the 1920s, so downtown would have seemed even older. Though that could also be said for other large Canadian cities.

Based on what I have been told by my in-laws and family friends who grew up in the Centennial and Wolseley areas respectively, beginning in the late 50's and progressing through the 60's was rapid middle class flight from the inner city areas of Winnipeg.

People of my parents generation (really early baby boomers) who grew up in Winnipeg seem to have kept a certain bitterness towards these areas of Winnipeg that they watched deteriorate first hand.

Wolseley is definitely on the upswing, but you would never know it if you talked to my wife's parents!

My grandparents’ generation (born in the early 1930s) experienced the late stages of downtown’s (ie, Portage Avenue’s) golden age, gradually embraced suburbanization between the 1950s and 1970s, but began expressing a sense of loss and nostalgia about downtown by the 1980s. (This nostalgia would be a big driver of support for Portage Place – a development that promised to resurrect the grandness, flash, and excitement of the 1940s and ‘50s, but with protection from the weather!) By the time my dad’s generation (born in the late 1950s) came of age, Portage Avenue was just one of a few regional shopping areas, and much of it was increasingly going down-market. He does remember taking the bus to Eaton’s with his grandmother (who didn’t drive and was deeply set in her ways), but by this time downtown wasn’t a big deal. He and his generation definitely don’t have that same nostalgia their parents did, and often wear their avoidance of downtown as a badge of honour.

Then of course came my generation (born in early 1980s) and downtown was initially exciting and interesting because it was seedy and forgotten: because it wasn’t the suburbs. Plus Portage Avenue had all the best record stores.

And I think you're right that there's a strong sense of bitterness among people who once lived downtown and in the inner city, especially among people who were poor. While the economic decline of Portage Avenue between, say, 1960 and 1980 could be nostalgically mourned, the huge social and physical breakdown of many inner city neighbourhoods in that same period could understandably be resented by families who remember a different time.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by wardlow

By the time my dad’s generation (born in the late 1950s) came of age, Portage Avenue was just one of a few regional shopping areas, and much of it was increasingly going down-market. He does remember taking the bus to Eaton’s with his grandmother (who didn’t drive and was deeply set in her ways), but by this time downtown wasn’t a big deal.

Right up until about 15 years ago there was still a fairly large sized contingent of little old ladies who would take the bus to shop downtown, just as they did in the old days. They were kind of the dominant figure in terms of downtown shoppers as late as the 90s when Eaton's was still going... it seemed as though Eaton's and The Bay were full of those types of ladies.

But now their numbers are really dwindling, which isn't surprising given that you'd have to be north of 75 years old to have any recollection of Portage Avenue when it was still the undisputed retail heavyweight champion of Winnipeg.

[drew]

^ My late grandmother would tell me about how she and her sister took the streetcar from their house near HSC to attend the grand opening of the Bay.

She mostly remembered the free ice cream.

She would also take the train during the summer to Grand Beach back during it's heyday.

She was born in 1910.

[wardlow]

One thing I sincerely wish I had the foresight to do when I was a teenager was talk to my great-grandmothers (1903-2000) about her recollections of Winnipeg, while she was still around. She was one of those women who took the "City bus" to Eaton's into the early 1990s.

[wardlow]

Originally Posted by esquire

It doesn't bother me that they never built the second tower in TD Place, but it does bother me greatly that they demolished this beauty of a building when it wasn't even standing in the way of 201 Portage:

Yep. So pointless. You can see it sitting alongside the completed 201 Portage building here:

Source: University of Winnipeg Archives

[bomberjet]

Originally Posted by drew

Based on what I have been told by my in-laws and family friends who grew up in the Centennial and Wolseley areas respectively, beginning in the late 50's and progressing through the 60's was rapid middle class flight from the inner city areas of Winnipeg.

People of my parents generation (really early baby boomers) who grew up in Winnipeg seem to have kept a certain bitterness towards these areas of Winnipeg that they watched deteriorate first hand.

Wolseley is definitely on the upswing, but you would never know it if you talked to my wife's parents!

There's a massive generational gap. I find the same thing talking to many of my older, suburban relatives. Even the ladies on the bus. "Nobody wants to be downtown, nevermind after dark" is the reigning sentiment.

Even my barber who is a middle aged man and works security at the Arena doesn't like coming downtown!