Richmond, B.C., considers banning Chinese-only signage

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by geotag277

A cursory google search reveals plenty of examples of Chinese only signs in Vancouver.



That one is from 1907, more than a century ago.

Here's another circa the 1980s:



These shots are technically Chinatown, but considering the volume and demographics of Richmond, it shouldn't surprise anyone to learn that there have been splattering of Chinese only signage in Richmond at various times in various places. "I was there decades ago and it never happened" seems a tad disingenuous. I was also there, and I seem to recall Chinese only signage in certain areas.

It seems the outage over Chinese only signs seemingly corresponded almost wholly to the ability for Chinese to buy property, and subsequently Richmond evolving from a poor, immigrant enclave that was generally undesirable to a expensive neighbourhood. Now residents want to also white wash history and pretend that Richmond has never been a Chinese enclave that never had Chinese only signage and this expansion of Chinese in Richmond must be stopped.

LOL, you should really stop trying to pretend you know anything about an area you don't live in.

Richmond was never a "poor immigrant enclave" in it's past, though it now reports some of the lowest incomes since the Mainland Chinese arrived. I assume that figure is derived from Canadian tax returns, strange, since as you pointed out they are building themselves multimillion dollar homes. One might almost think there was tax fraud going on, or money laundering....

[dleung]

Originally Posted by geotag277

It seems the outage over Chinese only signs seemingly corresponded almost wholly to the ability for Chinese to buy property, and subsequently Richmond evolving from a poor, immigrant enclave that was generally undesirable to a expensive neighbourhood

Multiculturalism is only palatable to white people in small harmless doses that don't threaten their place at the top of the hierarchy!

I'm back

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by geotag277

A cursory google search reveals plenty of examples of Chinese only signs in Vancouver.



That one is from 1907, more than a century ago.

Here's another circa the 1980s:



These shots are technically Chinatown, but considering the volume and demographics of Richmond, it shouldn't surprise anyone to learn that there have been splattering of Chinese only signage in Richmond at various times in various places. "I was there decades ago and it never happened" seems a tad disingenuous. I was also there, and I seem to recall Chinese only signage in certain areas.

It seems the outage over Chinese only signs seemingly corresponded almost wholly to the ability for Chinese to buy property, and subsequently Richmond evolving from a poor, immigrant enclave that was generally undesirable to a expensive neighbourhood. Now residents want to also white wash history and pretend that Richmond has never been a Chinese enclave that never had Chinese only signage and this expansion of Chinese in Richmond must be stopped.

Those photos don't appear to show Chinese ONLY signs.

[lio45]

You know, it's actually okay to find multiculturalism unpalatable.

There's an extremely vast middle ground between insisting that we have no culture of our own (let alone anything worth protecting culturally), and systematically putting all people of other cultures into crematory ovens.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by lio45

You know, it's actually okay to find multiculturalism unpalatable.

There's an extremely vast middle ground between insisting that we have no culture of our own (let alone anything worth protecting culturally), and systematically putting all people of other cultures into crematory ovens.

Might be OK, but it would have to be terribly frustrating in a multicultural country.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Might be OK, but it would have to be terribly frustrating in a multicultural country.

Perhaps but it is also true that the debate about it is often framed as a battle between absolute good and absolute evil.

Most of the cultures that form Canada's multicultural mosaic are not rooted in multicultural countries. And nobody thinks there is anything wrong with them because of this.

[Acajack]

Who rags on Japan because it's not multicultural?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Perhaps but it is also true that the debate about it is often framed as a battle between absolute good and absolute evil.

Multiculturalism, immigration, and general cultural/economic openness are not generally treated as issues that reasonable people can have a difference in opinion about. Instead the whole area is dominated by shaming and the like.

We see it on this very page of the thread. One post insinuates that you're behind the times or out of touch if you don't accept that Canada is multicultural. Another post categorically goes on about white people preserving their place at the top of the social hierarchy, i.e. they are all racists (you cannot worry about preserving your race's supremacy unless you're racist). Maybe that's meant as a joke, but do people find categorical statements about other races funny here on SSP Canada?

I think the laissez-faire cultural attitude in English Canada only existed because of the international dominance of English, and that is going to subside somewhat as countries like China develop. A second factor is that, economically, North America used to have a huge leg up in free markets, but that is mostly gone now. A third factor is that it is becoming easier and easier to travel and communicate around the world. What worked well for this country in 1980 is not necessarily going to work in 2030. Unless Canadians don't care about cultural integration and their language or affordability, they might have to be a bit more leery about how they engage with other countries. For example, maybe it's a bad idea to let people who don't live here buy land here or to give capital gains exemptions on $10M mansions owned by people who claim to have $0 in income. Policies resulting in weird corner cases that made no difference in past decades are occasionally turning into huge loopholes that create massive unfairness today.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Might be OK, but it would have to be terribly frustrating in a multicultural country.

Not at all, actually. The nation I live in has its own culture, and it's decently well defined. That "multiculturalism" you speak of doesn't really concern or impact me. Stuff that happens in Richmond BC might as well be happening on another planet.

However, you (kwoldtimer) are indeed correct in pointing out that I might be frustrated if I lived in a place like Richmond, BC. (For the record, I'd be even more frustrated if my condo board decided to become unlingual Mandarin against my will; my knowledge of that language is nil and I'm a bit too busy these days to give it a serious try.) But I don't live there nor would I care to; people over there do what they want and I'm fine with that.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Might be OK, but it would have to be terribly frustrating in a multicultural country.

The members of the Madarin speaking condo board seem to be doing just fine

And yes, I agree with many of the commenters above, opinions and feelings towards multiculturalism and immigration should not be seen as black and white issues.

Believe it or not but there are many shades between "I fucking hate all people who are different than me" and "My bleeding heart must welcome everyone without question or concern."

Currently my 4th year living in Japan and now being married to a Japanese woman has been an eye opening experience regarding these issues. The idea of moving to Japan and then demanding everyone here to revolve around my culture and traditions without any effort to assimilate into theirs / learn the official local language would be the most arrogant and rude thing to do IMO. I see no reason why we should not expect the same from those who come to Canada.

And yes, multiculturalism is problematic if you don't establish a basic foundation of language and culture for all those living in a region / country to share. This doesn't mean people can retain their old traditions and languages, but there must also be some shared aspects with the general population installed.

I also find it interesting how the pressure is always for western nations to diversify and be multicultural, but you never hear the same being said for Japan, or Korea, of China, or India, or any other non Western European nation. I feel this is due to people on the left ironically viewing African and Asian cultures as static artifacts that must be protected at all costs, while the west is a dynamic beast that must accept all changes from external forces without question.

The Donald Trump thread recently perfectly displayed how goofy this thinking can get where some on the far left expressed how they can't wait for white people to becole the minority in America because they believe that this will bring the of Trump and Republican style politics. The big joke about all of this is that the vast majority of immigrants replacing these white people actually come from cultures that are far right in social and political beliefs than the average American. Instead of extreme right wing politics dying the white right wing leaders will simply be replaced by whatever group becomes the new majority, and things may potentially become even more right wing. Look at the Philippines, their new found Trump is even worse than Trump himself (having laughed at rape victims and openly admitting to killing people) yet the vast majority there still love him, even more than right wing Americans love Trump.

Sorry, went on a rant there.

Just getting really tired of this with us or against us thinking.

Ironically while we are trying to divide the once two established genders into 38+ categories all other social issues seem to have become binary

[lio45]

Originally Posted by someone123

We see it on this very page of the thread. One post insinuates that you're behind the times or out of touch if you don't accept that Canada is multicultural.

Minor precision though: I have no problem "accepting" that Ontario or Toronto has no culture and is the equivalent of humankind's brand new lunar colony. I have no opinion on that, I don't live there. If everyone over there is fine with that, great; if not, then that's their problem, not mine.

I have no doubt there are people who've called Richmond home for a long time and now feel alien there. Again, it's mostly their problem. The onus was on them to do something to stop it. Stuff like a municipal-level Bill 101, "electing the PQ" at the municipal level, etc.

But one thing is clear, regardless of the approach taken, it is guaranteed to have its own downsides as well, as we all know. Can't have it all.

Among other things, all those old Richmond property owners are now quite a bit more wealthy than they'd have expected back then; they're probably not complaining about that, even though it's intimately linked to the fact they're having to endure seeing a lot of undecipherable Chinese language signs on various businesses in their city.

[1overcosc]

^^ I draw a distinction between Europe and North America in this matter. White people have no real "claim" to North America, IMO; they're an intruder people who violently invaded the continent and nearly destroyed its original culture. North American Whites can't really demand that newcomers assimilate into "White" values and traditions when the Whites didn't do a damn thing to try to integrate into the nations that were already here when they arrived in the first place.

But in Europe, where whites are the indigenous people, the original peoples of their countries with millennia of deeply rooted history, it's perfectly acceptable for ethnic Europeans to oppose multiculturalism/immigration to preserve their ethnic European majorities and cultures.

[Pinion]

The whole framing of the issue as "white Canadians vs Chinese" is racist. It's "everyone vs Chinese multi-millionaire money launderers." That includes middle and working class Chinese, who are also being pushed out.

Almost no one is from Vancouver. I'm technically born downtown but didn't grow up here and I've still been here longer than almost everyone. No one's from here. It's not xenophobia, it's a problem with being displaced by international criminal activity.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

^^ I draw a distinction between Europe and North America in this matter. White people have no real "claim" to North America, IMO; they're an intruder people who violently invaded the continent and nearly destroyed its original culture. North American Whites can't really demand that newcomers assimilate into "White" values and traditions when the Whites didn't do a damn thing to try to integrate into the nations that were already here when they arrived in the first place.

But in Europe, where whites are the indigenous people, the original peoples of their countries with millennia of deeply rooted history, it's perfectly acceptable for ethnic Europeans to oppose multiculturalism/immigration to preserve their ethnic European majorities and cultures.

More or less. Our claim to Canada is already almost a third as old as the Anglo-Saxons' claim to Britain, and as you just pointed out no one would ever dream of questioning the latter.

And interestingly enough, my ancestors on my dad's side (very deep roots in Nice, France) have been speaking French for a LOT less time than my Canadian ancestors from my mom's side.

Culturally, the national-level traditions of my European relatives on dad's side (say, their national holiday tomorrow - which represents something that happened in a foreign land to them) are a lot less theirs than the traditions of my North American relatives on my mom's side (say, their national holiday, St-Jean-Baptiste).

[lio45]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

they're an intruder people who violently invaded the continent and nearly destroyed its original culture.

Everyone did that. Almost every people on this globe violently invaded their neighbors at some point or another. It's not a viable argument after everyone involved has long been dead.

[Metro-One]

Exactly, at what interval of time does a population become native?

Much of Northern European culture was eradicated by Christianity and the Romans displaced many groups.

Islam has eradicated countless cultures throughout west and south Asia (along with much of Africa) and has been involved in essentially identical atrocities during these campaigns as Europe during its colonial period. The Chinese today are essentially a colonial empire occupying and removing cultures from vast expanses of land that weren't traditionally theirs, even the Japanese displaced a native population when they came to the archipelago (a tiny population of these natives remains in extreme northern Haokkaido).

Even narivengroups themselves often displaced each other and jostled around territory.

Hate to break the bad news, but that is humanity. This new wave of permanent guilt in the west in recognizing our atrocities is actually a pretty rare phenomenon in human history.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Islam has eradicated countless cultures throughout west and south Asia (along with much of Africa) and has been involved in essentially identical atrocities during these campaigns as Europe during its colonial period.

What about those evil occupying Spaniards? They didn't finish expelling Muslims from the Iberian peninsula until 1492, and the Muslims arrived around 700 AD!

Another questionable group is the Mi'kmaq population of Newfoundland. They displaced the Beothuk population of the island, which ultimately went extinct. It's not really clear when the Mi'kmaq arrived there but they seem only to have settled in larger numbers after Europeans had visited the island (they Mi'kmaq quickly ended up with their own sailing vessels, guns, etc.). I guess the eye-for-an-eye logic that indicates that "white" culture in North America is without valid claim also indicates that the Mi'kmaq are without valid claim. So I guess any marginalization that has happened to them or continues to happen to them is OK.

[Metro-One]

Exactly, there is no logical cut off point because everything is so grey, and one would be hard pressed to find any occupied territory in the world today where the current population didn't take part in some form of genocide, displacement, cultural purge, etc... in establishing their current control, culture, and population.

I guess Quebec will be the first to meet your 700 year benchmark, haha.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

North American Whites can't really demand that newcomers assimilate into "White" values and traditions when the Whites didn't do a damn thing to try to integrate into the nations that were already here when they arrived in the first place.

Actually, if you stop and think about it, yes they can.

When the whites arrived to this continent and tried to impose their own values, the natives resisted with all the tools at their disposal / all the tools they dared to use. The chips fell where they did.

Now, in turn, as the new "natives" of this land, the onus is on us to negotiate with newcomers, resist them when they're unreasonable, and compromise with them in win-win situations when possible.

If we don't play our cards well and it turns out every single condo board in the Quebec City area operates unilingually in Mandarin in a few decades, well, at least we tried.

But don't blame us for trying. Native Americans had that right, and they exercised it. They ultimately failed, but that's not because they didn't try.

So let's try.

[Acajack]

I actually tend to be somewhat more favourable to multiculturalism than against, but people should still see it for what it is: an elite-driven (especially corporate) fetish that primarily exists for mercantile reasons, as opposed to the ultimate virtuous end point in the evolution of the human species.

We don't all need to live in rainbow societies in order to not want to kill each other. And rainbow societies won't necessarily make us kill each other less. If we are talking about battling humanity's greatest scourge.