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  #721  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2014, 7:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stenar View Post
I'm new to the Paris forums, but looking in as I'm moving to Paris in a few months. I know a lot of people (both in Paris and in the U.S.) who still hate Pompidou and the Louvre pyramid. Not everyone loves them.
Anyway one of the motto in Paris is "I love nothing, I am Parisian".



You will find people complaining for everything.
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  #722  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2014, 3:22 AM
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A lot of Manhattan is 5- to 10-story buildings. There are smaller clusters of tall skyscrapers and other sections of the city with 10-20 story buildings.

I lived there for 3 years, so I know what it's like. I lived .3 km from the cluster of Midtown skyscrapers, but a lot of my neighborhood was 4-10 stories. If you walk along Fifth or Sixth Avenues in NYC, it seems like the city is all skyscrapers, but you go to the next block over and there are quiet, shorter neighborhoods.

Another reason that the skyscrapers don't add density to Manhattan is because they are mostly office buildings and a large number of the employees who work in them live in New Jersey, Queens and Brooklyn.

Manhattan also has Central Park, 3.399 km² of open space.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mousquet View Post
Thanks as always, Brisavoine.
Otherwise, you've got a point on the fact that highrises are not particularly effective in increasing density, unless maybe developing them in a dense pattern, which is what's been achieved in Manhattan. But even then, results are not as overwhelming as they seem to be. When you take a look at that amazing heady bulk of skyscrapers of Manhattan, you'd expect an even much greater density. So I guess for some technical reasons, possibly their large cores and large footprints, skyscrapers are not so density-efficient yet.
In short, Central Paris is stupidly screwing themselves for now. I think renewal will have to come from those suburbs of Grand Paris...

Last edited by Stenar; Feb 23, 2014 at 8:14 AM.
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  #723  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2014, 3:45 AM
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Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post

In my opinion, only a massive investment in roads can solve the problem of transportation at the level of the inner suburbs. We need to massively enlarge the current freeway network.
Roads are not the answer. We've torn out freeways in the USA and are busy building a lot of mass transit options. New roads do not relieve congestion on existing roads. They just lead to congestion on the new roads. That is why the USA is moving to mass transit. Mass transit is the transit equivalent of skyscrapers, whereas roads are like single-family suburban houses.

In NYC, if you drive into the city, you have to park in a parking garage that charges $30+/day. If you drive in every day for work, you pay $900-$1200/mo to park.

This is what happens when you build a bunch of roads. They tear down the city and build parking lots. This is Houston, Texas:


Last edited by Stenar; Feb 23, 2014 at 5:58 AM.
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  #724  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2014, 9:05 AM
DanielG425 DanielG425 is offline
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That was Houston almost half a century ago. Today houston is becoming a dense world city, but we are still suffering from extensive, and ongoing, highway construction. Mass transit is the only answer for density, and Houston is thankfully aware and building more mass transit today.
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  #725  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2014, 2:05 PM
New Brisavoine New Brisavoine is offline
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In France, mass transit is plagued by work stoppages, no night services, reduced services during July and August, and above all very uncomfortable conditions for the travelers (for example, there is still no real air conditioning in the Paris subway carriages in 2014, and there won't be any AC before at least 50 years, so it gets very uncomfortable to travel in the subway from April to September). You also have to deal with lots of annoying and obnoxious people.

In a car, you're alone, no one to bother you, you can listen to your music or the radio, you can turn the AC on, drive whenever you wish and at whatever time of the day you wish.

You can have a very dense network of freeways and still remain a very urban city. Think Madrid for instance. In the Paris metro area, the plan to build a complete and coherent freeway network was never completed, because it was stopped at the end of the 1970s. Many links are still missing.

This map shows the freeway network that was built in the Paris metro area from the 1930s to 1999:



On this one I have indicated in light blue the freeways that were built between 1999 and 2014, and in deep purple the 6 missing links that should urgently be built to improve the efficiency of the network. At this stage, nothing is planned due to the nefarious influence of the Greens who control the Paris Region regional council in a coalition with the Socialists.

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  #726  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2014, 3:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
In France, mass transit is plagued by work stoppages, no night services, reduced services during July and August...
The proposed 24-hour transit system that is driverless would solve some of these problems. The subway in NY is hot in summer and it's even hotter in NYC than Paris.


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Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
You can have a very dense network of freeways and still remain a very urban city. Think Madrid for instance. In the Paris metro area, the plan to build a complete and coherent freeway network was never completed, because it was stopped at the end of the 1970s. Many links are still missing.
If you build too dense a network of freeways, Paris will look like Beijing and kill off its citizens. In the 1950s-'60s, we thought all of these great ideas about automobiles, but we've learned that too many roads was a mistake. The USA is building mass transit as fast as it can.
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  #727  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2014, 1:31 PM
New Brisavoine New Brisavoine is offline
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Originally Posted by Stenar View Post
The proposed 24-hour transit system that is driverless would solve some of these problems.
Doubtful. It will only be 2 subway lines out of 16. And they won't be put in service before the late 2020s. Besides, even a driverless subway can be stopped in France. In Toulouse, the subway is entirely driverless, yet when there are nationwide work stoppages by public transport workers, the 6 people who control the Toulouse subway system behind their computers decide to shut down the entire driverless service.
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Originally Posted by Stenar View Post
The subway in NY is hot in summer and it's even hotter in NYC than Paris.
The problem is not the halls and corridors in the subway, but the carriages, which can be insanely hot. Temperatures of 100F inside the carriages of line 11 (and formerly line 4 before they FINALLY changed the carriages last year) are not rare events. Carriages on other lines routinely have temperatures around 90F from late Spring to end of Summer.

A temperature higher than 70F outside in Paris is enough to make any ride very uncomfortable in the Métro. And this is a very conservative country where you cannot go to work with casual wear as in the Silicon Valley. Wearing a suit and tie in the RER A in the morning to go to work at La Défense, when the carriages are packed with people and temperature reaches 90F, is frankly unbearable. Who wouldn't prefer to drive their air-conditioned car to La Défense instead? Especially when La Défense has tons of parking space.
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Originally Posted by Stenar View Post
If you build too dense a network of freeways, Paris will look like Beijing and kill off its citizens.
Which citizens are you talking about? The privileged 2 million inhabitants of Central Paris, or the 8 million inhabitants of the suburbs who don't live in Haussmannialand and just want practical and comfortable ways to transport themselves from point A to point B?
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  #728  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2014, 6:17 PM
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From SSC's CodeBarre75011, a random example of what they built for the Paris-Rive-Gauche masterplan, by far the largest of Central Paris developed at the moment.



Nothing hateful, I don't dislike it. I actually even find it rather nice, but it's just far, damn far from ambitious enough within the central city. This would be perfect 10 miles away from the Notre Dame cathedral.
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  #729  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2014, 5:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
Besides, even a driverless subway can be stopped in France. In Toulouse, the subway is entirely driverless, yet when there are nationwide work stoppages by public transport workers, the 6 people who control the Toulouse subway system behind their computers decide to shut down the entire driverless service.
That is terrible and pointless. They need to develop a computer system that runs it without people.


Quote:
Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
Which citizens are you talking about? The privileged 2 million inhabitants of Central Paris, or the 8 million inhabitants of the suburbs who don't live in Haussmannialand and just want practical and comfortable ways to transport themselves from point A to point B?
All of them. Have you seen Beijing?
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  #730  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2014, 7:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Stenar View Post
That is terrible and pointless. They need to develop a computer system that runs it without people.
Mah, that's what they did. Hey, that's what a driverless train is, but you still need human operators anyhow. For rail track maintenance for example.

Tsss... Forget Brisavoine on that topic, he's stubborn.
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  #731  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2014, 1:13 PM
New Brisavoine New Brisavoine is offline
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Originally Posted by Stenar View Post
That is terrible and pointless. They need to develop a computer system that runs it without people.
There will always need to be someone somewhere to control the system. And that someone can decide to shut down the subway if they wish to, as they do regularly in Toulouse when they participate in national protests.
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  #732  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2014, 7:05 PM
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I disagree. They could develop a system where the trains have communication between each other via bluetooth, wifi, or some other radio communication so they always know where each train is, they have sensors built into the trains to check for various malfunctions, people or objects in front of trains, etc.

This is what they are doing with driverless cars now. Google has cars driving around California with no people inside, testing them without people controlling them. It would be much easier to do this with a train because they don't encounter the myriad of obstacles that cars on the road do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
There will always need to be someone somewhere to control the system. And that someone can decide to shut down the subway if they wish to, as they do regularly in Toulouse when they participate in national protests.
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  #733  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2014, 6:27 PM
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Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
Excellent aviation news for Paris. According to the airport figures I've checked, it looks like the Paris metro area has risen to 4th place in the world in terms of air passenger traffic in 2013!!

In 2013, the three commercial airports of Paris (CDG, Orly, and Beauvais) had a total traffic of 94,517,000 passengers. This is up +1.95% compared to 2012.

In 2012, Paris was the 5th busiest air hub in the world just behind Atlanta, and with Beijing hot on its heels.

In 2013, air passenger growth in Beijing decreased considerably (only +2.2% for Beijing's main international airport). We don't have the results of the much smaller Beijing Nanyuan airport yet, but both airports should have had less than 90 million passengers combined in 2013.

As for Atlanta, we don't have the December traffic figures yet, but the 11 first months of 2013 have shown passenger traffic declining by 1.7% at Atlanta Airport. In order for Atlanta to have more passengers than the 94,517,000 of Paris, Atlanta needs to have had an exceptionally good month of December. In December 2012, Atlanta had 7,453,000 passengers. If Atlanta managed to keep the same number of passengers in December 2013 (which would run counter to the general declining trend of Atlanta in 2013), then Atlanta would have had 94,028,000 passengers in 2013, which is less than Paris. In order to beat Paris, Atlanta would need to have had a passenger increase of +6.6% in December 2013 compared to December 2012. In November 2013, passenger traffic at Atlanta Airport was down -5.2% compared to November 2013.

So in all likelihood, Paris passed Atlanta in 2013 and is now the 4th busiest air hub in the world behind London, New York, and Tokyo.

Where did you get the statistics for paris airports? i counted only 94 279 000 passengers, the same says website http://www.aeroport.fr/fichiers/UAF_...ais_140218.pdf
Even me i didnt expect strong december for american airports so unfortunately Paris is 5th this year - again. Im sure this year there will be a change!
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  #734  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2014, 7:06 PM
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This is Houston, TX back in the 70's. In this shot today, you'll find a massive Urban park, about twice the amount of high rises and a bustling convention center.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stenar View Post
Roads are not the answer. We've torn out freeways in the USA and are busy building a lot of mass transit options. New roads do not relieve congestion on existing roads. They just lead to congestion on the new roads. That is why the USA is moving to mass transit. Mass transit is the transit equivalent of skyscrapers, whereas roads are like single-family suburban houses.

In NYC, if you drive into the city, you have to park in a parking garage that charges $30+/day. If you drive in every day for work, you pay $900-$1200/mo to park.

This is what happens when you build a bunch of roads. They tear down the city and build parking lots. This is Houston, Texas:

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  #735  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2014, 1:16 AM
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Large campus (100,000m² of offices and 6,000m² of retail room to the streets) in Ivry that I had introduced over here for their redevelopment masterplan.
That seems fairly laid out.



There's in fact 4 separate projects in there. I'll try to find and post some more accurate renderings later. This is a milestone in turning Ivry's brownfields into some more dynamic and widely mixed-use districts.
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  #736  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2014, 1:59 AM
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Demolition of one of La Samaritaine building on Rue de Rivoli







This building standed here

_______________________________________

La Samaritaine was a big department store which closed in 2005.
The new Samaritaine complex will house a department store, office space, an hotel and some social housing.




This includes buildings or facades of different periods.
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  #737  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2014, 12:04 AM
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Cloud (2nd arrondissement).
38,000 m² of office space.

Before

After








http://www.pca-architecture.com/2013/10/ilot-richelieu/






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  #738  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2014, 9:20 AM
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So here's a bit more about that campus in Ivry (#735). That's more of a large lot that they booked mainly for offices than what they usually call a campus. I mean it should have a slightly better urban feel than an office fortress for including a little commercial/retail space and some room allocated to higher education.

Below is the location of the large lot within the area affected by masterpan Ivry Confluences, in full purple.



#10 is occupied by a college, #16 is some sport facility. As I mentioned earlier, that lot as a whole comprises 4 distinct projects.

To the river side, 2 buildings and a pedestrian alley in between to connect a little park and a square on the riverfront to the street on the other side of the lot.





30,500m² (~330k sq ft) of offices, 1100m² (~12k sq ft) of retail on 1st floors.

Behind this thing as seen from the river:





Roughly 15,000m² (160k sq ft) of offices and 1000m² (10k sq ft) of retail.

Yet behind this above:





~18,000m² (190k sq ft) of offices including some retail.

Finally, the mammoth in there...





40,300m² (433k sq ft) of offices including some retail on 1st floor.

http://94.citoyens.com/2013/ivry-con...4-04-2013.html

Again, post #735 for an overview of this whole thing.

Ivry's served by line C of the RER network and line 7 of the subway network. Line 8 of the subway is not far either. Not to mention buses and stuff... Well, this is cool as a change from brownfields.

Edit: crap, I'm struggling in finding the actual orientation in there. Given the larger rendering, the river should actually face a facade of the largest of the 4 projects and the matching tip of the incurved building. The French text describing the whole thing got me a bit confused about that...

Last edited by mousquet; Mar 23, 2014 at 10:19 AM.
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  #739  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2014, 2:31 PM
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Without forgetting the line 10 extension to Ivry, the new station will be Place Gambetta the roundabout next to this block.
Bad new, it is planned to be built before 2030, no precise date given but that means after 2020.

A Google Earth 3D view of the area



The view is centred on Boulevard Paul Vaillant Couturier, the main road of the neighborhood.
North, there is the Quai d'Ivry shopping mall (60,000m² - 646,000 sq ft).
South, Place Gambetta where a metro station is planned for the period 2020-2030.

There is plenty of space in the area, we can built a lot of things.
Empty lots, many industrial buildings and small old decaying buildings that will be replaced.
The big empty place is a big industrial building that was demolished, this is where will be the buildings in mousquet post.

A perfect place for Le Le Charbonneur.

Last edited by Minato Ku; Mar 23, 2014 at 3:37 PM.
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  #740  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2014, 7:31 AM
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Construction of Home, a residential project of the Paris-Rive-Gauche masterplan (13th arrondissment).













By cochise75 on SSC. Rendering of what they're building.


http://comtevollenweider.fr/images%2...20massena.html

The program made of 2 components (14 and 17 floors) that sit on a 5-story podium includes 96 market rate and 92 social housing units, and some retail to the street level. The parking garage is below the ground as usual over here nowadays, thankfully.

Now the stupid thing about social housing is it's been quite successful in madly increasing market rate prices all over the metro area. Prices in there exceed €10,000/m² (over US$1000 per square foot). In short, you have to either be well off enough or poor enough (that is eligible to their social housing) to live there. The lower and average middle class has been merely driven away from Central Paris by the local socialist authorities enforcing their social housing everywhere, for over a decade now. There seems to be a good point about their social housing, however. It seems to kind of increase social mixity, but not too much, though. Just enough to make the funny Parisian bobo feel better. The obvious problem is they won't build enough new housing because of their NIMBY voters all over the city. Therefore the regular middle class is driven out of their social mixity, for neither poor nor rich enough, and maybe for not voting socialist enough, LOL.

Anyway, here's another office project (with some retail) coming to that PRG area.






http://www.a234.fr/architecture/proj...auche/?lang=en

It's actually built right above rail tracks going to the Austerlitz station, as a little bunch of buildings of that masterplan. They're extending the city over rail tracks, if you will, cause there's almost no more building land left within Central Paris today.
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