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  #41  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 5:18 PM
Trainguy Trainguy is offline
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
And people take risks because they don't understand the stopping distances of trains. They think it can stop on a dime like their car. Even an Amtrak train at that slow speed would likely take a couple hundred meters to stop. A freight train would probably take over a kilometre.



Better yet, both. A hedge of blackberry bushes will take time to grow, so the fence would provide an immediate barrier and in time bushes will hide the fence. Also, with the bushes, a 4 foot fence would probably be good enough.
Good points but the best design doesn't trump stupidity. Railway has been there 110 years. Not going anywhere in our lifetimes.
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  #42  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 6:22 PM
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Does anyone know where the railway was originally? All I could find was that it was rerouted along the water in 1909. But
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  #43  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 8:02 PM
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Does anyone know where the railway was originally? All I could find was that it was rerouted along the water in 1909. But
It used to go north near 176th st and around that huge hill into Cloverdale and continued north until it connected with the (now) CN Rail. However, that route was deemed too steep and they opted for a water-level route. Thus we have the BNSF snake around Whiterock/ Cresent Beach and then north to the Fraser river bridge.

If you go back to May 18th 2016 (page 1) in this thread you can see a map of the original alignment.
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  #44  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 8:24 PM
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Probably concrete rail ties, for starters.
I disagree. While concrete ties are needed for HRS, it is far from the limiting factor on this line. Many other things would need to be done before that becomes helpful.
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  #45  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 9:03 PM
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Originally Posted by logicbomb View Post



Outside of a 7-8 km tunnel, no other route will be feasible because of the topography and property acquisition that would be required. That alone projects to be near 1 bil.

Plus why bother? Anyone who purchased property near a heavily used railroad that's been there for over 110 years shouldn't complain. Likewise to those complainers in Port Moody and Port Royal. Cry me a river.
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Originally Posted by Trainguy View Post
It used to go north near 176th st and around that huge hill into Cloverdale and continued north until it connected with the (now) CN Rail. However, that route was deemed too steep and they opted for a water-level route. Thus we have the BNSF snake around Whiterock/ Cresent Beach and then north to the Fraser river bridge.

If you go back to May 18th 2016 (page 1) in this thread you can see a map of the original alignment.
it is the plain, black dotted line
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  #46  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2017, 10:05 PM
cganuelas1995 cganuelas1995 is offline
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I disagree. While concrete ties are needed for HRS, it is far from the limiting factor on this line. Many other things would need to be done before that becomes helpful.
Things that go high speed tend to also like going in straight lines.
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  #47  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2017, 4:31 AM
Trainguy Trainguy is offline
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Things that go high speed tend to also like going in straight lines.
If you want true high speed rail, look at Japan or China. The Bullet train has been around since 1964. Here we are in 2017 with nothing.
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  #48  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2017, 4:54 AM
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If you want true high speed rail, look at Japan or China. The Bullet train has been around since 1964. Here we are in 2017 with nothing.
I agree, but please remember that Japan has the large, dense, population base to support that type of market.
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  #49  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2017, 5:05 AM
flipper316 flipper316 is offline
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I agree, but please remember that Japan has the large, dense, population base to support that type of market.
And we don't? look how busy the westcoast express is.
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  #50  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2017, 5:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Trainguy View Post
It used to go north near 176th st and around that huge hill into Cloverdale and continued north until it connected with the (now) CN Rail. However, that route was deemed too steep and they opted for a water-level route. Thus we have the BNSF snake around Whiterock/ Cresent Beach and then north to the Fraser river bridge.

If you go back to May 18th 2016 (page 1) in this thread you can see a map of the original alignment.
Off the bat, I wasn't even aware of this previous late 1800's alignment until this thread from way back. As such, since I am a history geek and reside not too far from same, quite awhile back I went to to Google Earth in order to discern the original alignment and then subsequently travelled publicly accessible lands.

BTW, the area has nothing to do with Cloverdale, no huge hill is involved, and the gradient was not steep at all by estimation. More particularly, we are talking about the area between current 8th Ave. and 32nd Ave., which current Hwy 15 (176th St.) traverses on a straight line and over a huge hill.

Back then, in order to avoid same, then civil engineers utilized a curvilinear route utilizing the Hazelmere Valley in South Surrey between 8th Ave. and 32nd Ave. That routing was along roughly the same flatlands connecting either sides of the ridge.

Again, similar flatlands were extant at the bottom of the ridge through Hazelmere Valley and mostly toward 32nd Ave. in the north.

Routing:

1. North along then 176th Street;
2. Swung eastward at 8th Ave.;
3. Crossed 16th Ave. at roughly 179th St.;
4. Continued eastward along base of bluff through Hazelmere Valley;
5. Crossed 184th St. at ~19th Ave.;
6. Headed northward and crossed ~185th St. at 20th Ave. continuing northward to 24th Ave.;
7. Then swung westward at ~25th Ave. straight-lining to 176th St./32nd Ave.

Not much gradient (actually gradual) in the northern portion and if same was any problem, I believe that they could simply have dug a short perhaps 5 - 10 ft. "cut" (after the fact) in order to alleviate any such potential problem. Frankly, it was a nice "clean" routing based upon my observations.

BTW, I suspect that the original lot plans filed at the Land Title Office originated from the construction of this rail corridor from the late 1800's. Why? Along the corridor, one can clearly witness buildings that do not conform to the "grid" in the area. More particularly they are "angled" along and aside the original rail corridor routing.

To wit, within the past couple of years, either/or the City of Surrey/Metro Vancouver constructed a one-storey brick building in the NW quadrant of 184th St./24th Ave. (suspect it's a pump-house of some sort). Said structure fronting 184th St. is, strangely enough, not parallel with 184th St. Moreover, it is "angled" at the exact same locale where the original rail corridor routing crossed 184th St. heading westward.

BTW, here is a Google Earth map of the original corridor and one can clearly delineate same as, for whatever reason, at least a narrow band of bushes/trees follows the original alignment splitting farmland. (perhaps old rail ballast rendering land not farmable?)

From 8th Ave./176th St. in the south to 32nd Ave./176th St. in the north:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.04258.../data=!3m1!1e3
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  #51  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2017, 5:22 AM
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And we don't? look how busy the westcoast express is.
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  #52  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2017, 1:35 PM
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And we don't? look how busy the westcoast express is.
But that is a commuter rail line, not an intercity rail line, so not really compatible. It does show the need for a second line south of the Fraser though. The problem is finding a route that is reasonably direct yet serves the population centres. That is a topic for another thread though.

Looking at population alone, HSR between Vancouver and Seattle is feasible, but is complicated by them being in different countries, neither of which have been terribly supportive of rail in the past 50 years. We can't even get the government to build HSR between Canada's 2 largest metropolitan regions (with the 5th largest between the two). What is the hope of getting two governments to agree to build HSR between Canada's 3rd largest Metropolitan region and the USA's 15th largest? The only hope is for BC and Washington to do it without federal support.

Even if they did decide to upgrade the BNSF line in White Rock, that is only one piece of the puzzle. There is also the issue of getting across the Fraser and into Vancouver. The existing route is very slow.
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  #53  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2017, 4:22 AM
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This is why they moved the track location:

In 1907 the Great Northern Railway(GNR) began re–routing its main line from Blaine to the New Westminster bridge to follow the coast line of Semiahmoo and Boundary Bays. The original line, operated under the subsidiary the New Westminster and Southern Railway(NWSR), traversed boggy land from Clayton to Port Kells and re–routing was deemed necessary. This combined with the potential for development of White Rock and Crescent Beach were the deciding factors. The new line began operation in March 1909 and the rails were taken up just north of the border at Douglas Station (end of track in 1909 was the Melrose Shingle mill siding). The end of track was moved north in 1911 to the Campbell River Lumber Spur, just north of the Campbell River. The remainder of the line the to the Nicomekl River was abandoned by 1919, and the section from Port Kells to Brownsville was sold to the Canadian Northern Railway in 1916. The section from Clayton to the McNair's Mill spur north of the Nicomekl River remained in use until the end of 1929 and the tracks were lifted in 1930.

http://www.surreyhistory.ca/rrera.html
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  #54  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2017, 4:41 AM
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Originally Posted by dharper View Post
This is why they moved the track location:

In 1907 the Great Northern Railway(GNR) began re–routing its main line from Blaine to the New Westminster bridge to follow the coast line of Semiahmoo and Boundary Bays. The original line, operated under the subsidiary the New Westminster and Southern Railway(NWSR), traversed boggy land from Clayton to Port Kells and re–routing was deemed necessary. This combined with the potential for development of White Rock and Crescent Beach were the deciding factors. The new line began operation in March 1909 and the rails were taken up just north of the border at Douglas Station (end of track in 1909 was the Melrose Shingle mill siding). The end of track was moved north in 1911 to the Campbell River Lumber Spur, just north of the Campbell River. The remainder of the line the to the Nicomekl River was abandoned by 1919, and the section from Port Kells to Brownsville was sold to the Canadian Northern Railway in 1916. The section from Clayton to the McNair's Mill spur north of the Nicomekl River remained in use until the end of 1929 and the tracks were lifted in 1930.

http://www.surreyhistory.ca/rrera.html
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  #55  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2017, 5:40 AM
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Originally Posted by dharper View Post
This is why they moved the track location:

In 1907 the Great Northern Railway(GNR) began re–routing its main line from Blaine to the New Westminster bridge to follow the coast line of Semiahmoo and Boundary Bays. The original line, operated under the subsidiary the New Westminster and Southern Railway(NWSR), traversed boggy land from Clayton to Port Kells and re–routing was deemed necessary.
I was aware that the original late 1800's rail line followed the current Hwy 15 (176th St.) corridor northward from 32nd Ave., in south Surrey, and continued northward to near the current Hwy 15/Fraser Hwy intersection (~Clayton). Thereafter, the old rail corridor veered eastward along current Harvie Road to Port Kells.

However, back in the day (in my mindset) would have been much cheaper to keep the old rail routing along current Hwy 15 to at least south of Hwy 10 (Colebrook Rd) and veer westward (basically a straight-shot along flat land) to Mud Bay at Hwy 99/Hwy 91 interchange - current CP routing to Roberts Bank & current BNSF rail intersection.

The new corridor along the Semiahmoo Bay/Boundary Bay foreshore would be longer and much more expensive/difficult to construct, be prone to mudslides from the adjacent bluff & also be a slower routing due to the meandering curvilinear nature of same. On top of that would be the CAPEX/complexity involved with a trestle over Mud Bay in that era.

Reaching the same locale, the original alignment would have been much cheaper in terms of CAPEX, shorter, and provide faster train speeds. Of course, I am viewing this matter from the lens of 2017 in terms of CAPEX, economics, logistics, travel time, and speed. Obviously different era back then with a different calculus.
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  #56  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2017, 8:40 AM
Tetsuo Tetsuo is offline
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Wasn't there an economic reason to use the present day route? As passengers = revenue, and White Rock was seen as a getaway for the family correct?

When was the BCER track (modern day Southern Railway of BC) placed alongside HWY 10.

Ron.
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  #57  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2017, 4:44 PM
dharper dharper is offline
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Originally Posted by Tetsuo View Post

When was the BCER track (modern day Southern Railway of BC) placed alongside HWY 10.

Ron.
http://www.surreyhistory.ca/bcerstations.html
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  #58  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2017, 7:40 PM
Tetsuo Tetsuo is offline
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Such a great website, Jack Brown should publish a book ala Chuck Davis.

So perhaps BNSF was out maneuvered for a HWY 10 route by BCER?

Ron.
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  #59  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2017, 10:33 PM
Trainguy Trainguy is offline
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Originally Posted by Tetsuo View Post
Such a great website, Jack Brown should publish a book ala Chuck Davis.

So perhaps BNSF was out maneuvered for a HWY 10 route by BCER?

Ron.
There are some cool videos on Youtube of train going all the way to Chilliwack.
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  #60  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2017, 10:38 PM
Trainguy Trainguy is offline
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The politicians know that moving the line from White Rock is dead in the water. It would take a major disaster like Lac-Mégantic to get any movement on this file. Lip service is paid now and then but the trains keep rolling day and night and will most likely continue to beyond our lifetimes. Tunneling under White Rock/South Surrey is the only realistic flat option. All others require grades or major relocation.
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