Surrey Langley Skytrain - Expo Line Extension | Proposed

[trofirhen]

For SoF, à mon avis, perhaps LRT linking up with the southern end of SKYTRAIN is the best way to go for the Whalley/Newton/North Delta areas. As LRT is a bit cheaper than RRT technology, it could have a sort of network that connects with SKYTRAIN.

As for more distant commuter regions like Langley and Abbotsford/Clearbrook, I think commuter rail (and there are lots of trains to choose from, these days) is the better option, as it's faster. Extending SKYTRAIN out there seems rather silly, somehow.

And what about a connection from the Whalley end of SKYTRAIN out through Richmond to YVR? Good idea? Not good? I let the readers decide. Thank you

[nname]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

For SoF, à mon avis, perhaps LRT linking up with the southern end of SKYTRAIN is the best way to go for the Whalley/Newton/North Delta areas. As LRT is a bit cheaper than RRT technology, it could have a sort of network that connects with SKYTRAIN.

As for more distant commuter regions like Langley and Abbotsford/Clearbrook, I think commuter rail (and there are lots of trains to choose from, these days) is the better option, as it's faster. Extending SKYTRAIN out there seems rather silly, somehow.

And what about a connection from the Whalley end of SKYTRAIN out through Richmond to YVR? Good idea? Not good? I let the readers decide. Thank you

One case, you can have a network of LRT and all transfers for trips out of SoF must be made at Surrey Central. Another case, you can have a network of LRT and two trunk SkyTrain lines to Newton and Langley, and transfers can be made at any point where the SkyTrain and LRT crosses. Which one is a more convenient system?

I also think Abbotsford/Clearbrook is too far for SkyTrain (or any form of rapid transit), but Langley City, or maybe even a couple of stations past that, is definitely within the scope of a rapid transit system. It would be a long ride into Vancouver, but few of them will actually ride it end-to-end. There are 30+ other destinations along the line. There are many metro line in the world that are longer than 50km. In fact, our current Expo Line length of 27.994 km is considered quite short by world standard.

As for a line from Whalley to YVR - I think a line to Bridgeport or Brighouse is probably more likely, as you don't need TWO lines going to YVR. Its definitely not a bad idea, but I don't see it happen before the UBC line and a (small) network of rapid transit line in SoF. There should be at least a bus service first...

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by nname

One case, you can have a network of LRT and all transfers for trips out of SoF must be made at Surrey Central. Another case, you can have a network of LRT and two trunk SkyTrain lines to Newton and Langley, and transfers can be made at any point where the SkyTrain and LRT crosses. Which one is a more convenient system?

I also think Abbotsford/Clearbrook is too far for SkyTrain (or any form of rapid transit), but Langley City, or maybe even a couple of stations past that, is definitely within the scope of a rapid transit system. It would be a long ride into Vancouver, but few of them will actually ride it end-to-end. There are 30+ other destinations along the line. There are many metro line in the world that are longer than 50km. In fact, our current Expo Line length of 27.994 km is considered quite short by world standard.

As for a line from Whalley to YVR - I think a line to Bridgeport or Brighouse is probably more likely, as you don't need TWO lines going to YVR. Its definitely not a bad idea, but I don't see it happen before the UBC line and a (small) network of rapid transit line in SoF. There should be at least a bus service first...

Yeah, I really don't think extending the line to Langley would create too long a line. It's not like the trains computers get too tired or demand overtime if we work them long hours without a break. Heck, in London the Piccadilly line is 71km and still uses drivers.

The only reason not to send it all the way to Abbotsford is because you wouldn't get the passengers per KM of track required to make the cost of doing it worth it. If Abbotsford was a happening place people wanted to travel to/from all day long with a really densely populated core then there would be no technical reason not to send Skytrain all that way.

Langley is a fast growing city and not all its commuters are downtown bound. If Skytrain were extended to Langley City, most of the riders would ride to Surrey or Burnaby. The one line would provide most commuters with direct access to their destination. As well, jobs are growing in Langley. In fact, my girlfriend's company has a headquarters in Langley, and almost everyone who works there commutes in from Surrey (and to a lesser extent Abbotsford).

WRT travel from Whalley to YVR, I've always thought you could use the BCER Interurban line. You could run a commuter/LRT/Tram train from Langley (and beyond) along the BCER to Scott Road Station, then across the river and along the CP ROW along the north side of the river all the way to Marine Drive station on the Canada line. It would have the added benefit of providing rapid transit to the growing communities/business parks that are along South Vancouver and Burnaby. A line of that distance might not be suitable for typical light rail, but it could work as something of a cross between the WCE and London Overground or Paris RER.

[nname]

The new consultation for Surrey Rapid Transit is out on TransLink Listens...

They seems to have an updated figure regarding to cost and ridership.

Something I've noticed:
- On Newton line, both RRT and LRT's cost are slightly reduced. RRT still cost 90% more than LRT, but projected to carry more than 3 times at much riders.
- On Langley line, RRT's cost is dramatically reduced to 1.66 billions, and is now only 580 millions more than LRT. LRT's cost remained about the same, but it would actually get less rider than the BRT option for some reason. The time saving for LRT over BRT is a mere 1 min but it cost 600millions more. RRT carries about twice as much as both LRT and BRT and is 10min faster.
- On Guildford Line, the BRT still comes up with higher ridership than LRT... No RRT option here.

[nickinacan]

I completed the survey as well. The fact is that BRT will not help shape the areas it serviced. Just look at the B-Line through Vancouver. Most of Richmond along #3 Road developed due to the promise of Skytrain, not the B-Line, just as Coquitlam Centre is currently doing now. It wasn't until the Canada Line or Millennium line were put in that real growth started to occur. Trains, not buses, shape the cities around them.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by nickinacan

I completed the survey as well. The fact is that BRT will not help shape the areas it serviced. Just look at the B-Line through Vancouver. Most of Richmond along #3 Road developed due to the promise of Skytrain, not the B-Line, just as Coquitlam Centre is currently doing now. It wasn't until the Canada Line or Millennium line were put in that real growth started to occur. Trains, not buses, shape the cities around them.

While I agree with you, I don't think anybody is willing to pay $600m more for that. That's an incredible amount of money.

Of course, this all assumes you believe the numbers they are using...

[Millennium2002]

I don't necessarily agree with that statement. Yes, the promise of SkyTrain did supr development in both Downtown Richmond and Coquitlam, but both cities managed to do generally well in the interim even with their rapid frequent bus services. Another factor playing into this is how both cities have managed to promote and concentrate their growth in the form of midrises and high-rises on the most likely corridors to get a rapid transit service. This pales in comparison to Surrey, which - despite its progress on densifying Downtown and the local town centres - is still partly split between developing its various new suburbs and the inner city. I think if they are willing to spend more time densifying the core and the outlying town centres that they could make a way stronger case at any form of improved rapid and local transit in the future. But anyway, that's probably been said before.

I find it interesting that they omitted RRT for the Guildford corridor... that's like one area where RRT might be warranted already lol. Perhaps they're thinking of doing it as a very into the future expansion after the Newton line is built.

[racc]

I'm really puzzled by the lack of consideration of RRT to Guilford. It would be a great connection to the Highway 1 Rapid Bus and public or private coach service to the rest of the Province. The Highway 1 right of way is also really the only potential practical right-of-way for higher speed rail.

104 is also a narrow right-of-way so elevated RRT would fit a lot better than LRT.

RRT to Langley is really stretching it (or even LRT from Surrey Central to Langley). Downtown to Langley is really starting to be a long haul for a metro system. Regional rail with stops every 5 or 10 km would be a much better way to get from downtown to Langley. Then have streetcar or shorter LRT lines to serve locations close by.

This is really starting to look like another regional plan where the province might have to jump in and save us from ourselves yet again.

[nname]

Actually, I'm all fine with RRT going as far as Langley. Assuming a routing along Fraser, there is only one 3km gap between the edge of Fleetwood and the Langley build-up area, and then you have (north) Cloverdale, (east) Clayton, Willowbrook, and Langley Centre about 1.2km apart. I would agree with you if there's a 5-10km gap between each built-up area past, like the one east of Langley, but this is not the case in the west. There is nothing wrong with a 3-4km gap between two stations on a metro system. Calgary have plenty of stations 4 km apart. And in fact, Seattle's LRT have a huge 9km gap between two stations...

[logan5]

Is Translink purposely trying to confuse people with all these different sets of numbers? A while back when we were talking about lengthening the platforms to accommodate potential new passengers from Langley and Surrey, the cost figure I heard was 1.3 billion. Reading the Surrey Rapid Transit Study/Design Assumptions and Trade-offs, Translink estimates the cost of an elevated RRT station at 20 million. So 20 stations on the expo line times 20 million equals 400 million. Surely it couldn't cost more to lengthen a station than to build one from scratch.

[racc]

Originally Posted by logan5

Is Translink purposely trying to confuse people with all these different sets of numbers? A while back when we were talking about lengthening the platforms to accommodate potential new passengers from Langley and Surrey, the cost figure I heard was 1.3 billion. Reading the Surrey Rapid Transit Study/Design Assumptions and Trade-offs, Translink estimates the cost of an elevated RRT station at 20 million. So 20 stations on the expo line times 20 million equals 400 million. Surely it couldn't cost more to lengthen a station than to build one from scratch.

If the station is underground, it can certainly cost more to lengthen the platform than build a new elevated station. As well, existing stations have to stay open so that likely increases construction costs a far amount.

[nname]

Originally Posted by logan5

Is Translink purposely trying to confuse people with all these different sets of numbers? A while back when we were talking about lengthening the platforms to accommodate potential new passengers from Langley and Surrey, the cost figure I heard was 1.3 billion. Reading the Surrey Rapid Transit Study/Design Assumptions and Trade-offs, Translink estimates the cost of an elevated RRT station at 20 million. So 20 stations on the expo line times 20 million equals 400 million. Surely it couldn't cost more to lengthen a station than to build one from scratch.

The 1.3 billion was not from TransLink, but from the provincial government's transit plan. I do think they are inflating the number there, since they also included Canada Line as part of the 14 billions package when was is already near completion when they released the plan....

Translink's estimate was 800 millions as-spent I think, and the spending is to spread out between 2011 and 2041. More than half of the cost is actually the purchasing of new trains.

[bardak]

Originally Posted by racc

I'm really puzzled by the lack of consideration of RRT to Guilford. It would be a great connection to the Highway 1 Rapid Bus and public or private coach service to the rest of the Province. The Highway 1 right of way is also really the only potential practical right-of-way for higher speed rail.

104 is also a narrow right-of-way so elevated RRT would fit a lot better than LRT.

There are no good routes for RRT to get to Guilford is the main problem. The two options are pretty poor. One to curve the track back north from King George which is awkward and leaves no practical expansion option. The second option is to branch off at 104th but the expo line is already branched once at Columbia. On top of that the only real expansion from there is to go back down to Fleetwood using twice the leangth than it would have taken to go there directly from King George.

Originally Posted by racc

RRT to Langley is really stretching it (or even LRT from Surrey Central to Langley). Downtown to Langley is really starting to be a long haul for a metro system. Regional rail with stops every 5 or 10 km would be a much better way to get from downtown to Langley. Then have streetcar or shorter LRT lines to serve locations close by.

If you are trying to justify a RRT to Langley as a way to get people form Langley to Downtown it definitely not the way to go. However I don't think that that is what the study is about. If you view it as how to best improve mobility in the region it make a lot more sense as it give the connecting buses a major boost due to the network effect.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by logan5

Surely it couldn't cost more to lengthen a station than to build one from scratch.

I dunno. It's a lot more difficult to do the work when you have to keep the line open the station open to traffic. And I'm guessing that in some cases there will have to be work done to relocate existing station facilities, depending on the station layout.

[nname]

Originally Posted by bardak

There are no good routes for RRT to get to Guilford is the main problem. The two options are pretty poor. One to curve the track back north from King George which is awkward and leaves no practical expansion option. The second option is to branch off at 104th but the expo line is already branched once at Columbia. On top of that the only real expansion from there is to go back down to Fleetwood using twice the leangth than it would have taken to go there directly from King George.

Create a Y between Gateway and Surrey Central...

I'd actually perfer going down from Guildford to Fleetwood and then continue to Langley... Sure it is a longer route and higher cost, but it would be cheaper than 2 separate routes, and serve more people than a line running through forest, right?

[nname]

Took a look at the document again, the major costs are:

New Vehicles 427.7M
Propulsion 83.3M
New yard 41.4M <- I suppose this would include in any potential SkyTrain extension in Surrey

Station upgrades:
Burrard 10.3M
Broadway 80.4M <- Included in Evergreen project
Stadium 4.1M
29th Ave 6.2M
Joyce 9.3M
Metrotown 41.2M
Edmonds 19.6M
Nanaimo, Royal Oak, 22nd Street, Columbia, New West, Scott Road, Gateway 24.3M total


And then there are some minor items add up to a total cost of 783.1M (2010$)

[nickinacan]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

I don't necessarily agree with that statement. Yes, the promise of SkyTrain did supr development in both Downtown Richmond and Coquitlam, but both cities managed to do generally well in the interim even with their rapid frequent bus services. Another factor playing into this is how both cities have managed to promote and concentrate their growth in the form of midrises and high-rises on the most likely corridors to get a rapid transit service. This pales in comparison to Surrey, which - despite its progress on densifying Downtown and the local town centres - is still partly split between developing its various new suburbs and the inner city. I think if they are willing to spend more time densifying the core and the outlying town centres that they could make a way stronger case at any form of improved rapid and local transit in the future. But anyway, that's probably been said before.

The real issue is that Translink has always put the chicken before the egg. They plan their routes to where the population currently is rather than using it to develop cities. All three B-Lines are (or were in the case of the 98) in areas that have had the promise of rapid transit for quite some time. For example:

97 - Coquitlam Centre to Lougheed Town Centre (Evergreen Line)
98 - Burrard Station to Richmond (Canada Line)
99 - Commercial/Broadway Station to UBC (Broadway/UBC Line)

Surrey has cheap land in comparison to the North Fraser so there has been no need to build up to add cheaper stock. This will change thanks to the lack of affordability and the volume of people moving to now moving into Surrey. Not to mention that the Skytrain in Surrey was built in what is Surrey's least desirable area. Thankfully that area is now the City Centre and is experiencing massive government investment from all levels of government, similar to what happened to Vancouver when it started to boom.

But the biggest deterrence for bus and BRT is just the stigma of the bus itself. People who don't rely on transit don't like buses. Now a train, they would happily ride on one of those. There is a huge untapped ridership in the South Fraser that would bring in new revenues for Translink, and not to mention help bring people into Surrey's City Centre.

Think of it this way. Even with the 98 B-Line, it only had a ridership of 18,000 per day. Since they replaced it with the Canada Line, it was seeing 110,000 per day in February 2011, and it wasn't even supposed to his 100,000 until 2013. And that isn't just due to an increase in capacity either as it is well above the ridership estimates. Trains bring in passengers.

[logan5]

Canada line replaced more than one bus route. A total of those bus routes would be a better comparison to the daily ridership of the Canada Line...

[bardak]

Originally Posted by nname

Create a Y between Gateway and Surrey Central...

You would still end up with three branches that would have a maximum frequency of 4.5 minutes if the trains are evenly split between each branch.

Originally Posted by nname

I'd actually perfer going down from Guildford to Fleetwood and then continue to Langley... Sure it is a longer route and higher cost, but it would be cheaper than 2 separate routes, and serve more people than a line running through forest, right?

If the current line was not extended so far south I would agree with you however we have to work with what we have and without branching the only options to get to Guildford or Fleetwood are though Green Timbers. While it might not be great for Guildford if they take Fraser highway it does give them a second route to the Skytrain via 152nd.

[nname]

Originally Posted by bardak

You would still end up with three branches that would have a maximum frequency of 4.5 minutes if the trains are evenly split between each branch.

Well, for it being a Y, you can have a Langley <-> Newton via Surrey Central routing (the Waterfront <-> Langley line would skip Surrey Central). Interline with other branch gives 2.25min frequency and give 14,000 pphpd maximum capacity. I think this will be more than enough for a long long time.