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  #121  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2007, 1:09 AM
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Originally Posted by rgolch View Post
Yet, it is interesting that NY, Chi, and DC were the only cities in the northern part of the country that made the top ten, much of which could be attributed to births. And lets face it, DC would barely be considered "northern." Clearly, climate has much to do with it.
If climate has *so much* to do with, how would these northern cities have grown so large in the first place? And for that matter, why is Canada growing so much, or places in northern China and Europe?
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  #122  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2007, 1:09 AM
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Originally Posted by rgolch View Post
I think it's time to quit talking about the abhorrent sprawl in Dallas, Atlanta, and Houston, and finally admit that what has happened in these cities is quite an accomplishment.
Well, by the same token, maybe thats why they have that sprawl. Apparently more and more americans are attracted to sprawl in general and want to live in it, and these cities metro areas are developing accordingly. Even chicagoland's growth is primarily in the exurbs and suburbs.

You cant talk about the growth without talking about the sprawl, it is what it is.
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  #123  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2007, 1:18 AM
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Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
If climate has *so much* to do with, how would these northern cities have grown so large in the first place? And for that matter, why is Canada growing so much, or places in northern China and Europe?
I do figure that climate has had some effect. Perhaps a "jump starting" effect. Afterall, if all this growth were only about affordability, then why are places like Buffalo, Pittsburgh or the Prairie states not booming? They are even cheaper than Atlanta, Houston or Dallas.

As for why northern cities grew so large in the first place, I'd say it had something to do with socioeconomic reasons (slavery, plantation agriculture etc). And life in the subtropics was not so nice before airconditioning.

Canada is growing (not very much though, in relation to the sunbelt) because it is a rich country with a relatively open immigration system. Beijing and other Chinese cold cities are growing because the whole country is booming, and lots of infrastructure and infrastructure growth is in the established cities.

Weather is certainly not even close to the main factor for global migration patterns, but it must have something to do with the growth of the sunbelt after WWII and widespread airconditioning.
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  #124  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2007, 1:24 AM
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Originally Posted by danwxman View Post
To whoever said they love that it's in the upper 60s in February in Atlanta. Uh, the average high is 57. I'm sure it gets into the upper 60s occaisonally, but it's not like that the whole month. The average high is 87 in June, 89 in July, and 88 in August. That's pretty hot if you ask me, and those are higher averages then any city in the Northeast.

Also, for those of you who will understand this, the average dewpoint (which measures humidity) is lower in the Northeast then Atlanta. For example, the average dewpoint in June in Atlanta is 65-70 (borderline oppressive), while in New York it's 55-60 (comfortable).

Hearing about a big east coast heat wave is a major news story because it only happens a couple times a year, while in the South it's just that damn hot and humid all summer long.
Actually the last few Februarys' have been pretty cold in Atlanta....it is January that it has been quite mild over the past few years with temps in the 60's-70's most days.
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  #125  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2007, 2:01 AM
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Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
If climate has *so much* to do with, how would these northern cities have grown so large in the first place? And for that matter, why is Canada growing so much, or places in northern China and Europe?
Everything is relative. The parts of Canada that is growing fastest are also its warmest, relatively speaking of course.
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  #126  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2007, 2:25 AM
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Originally Posted by bricky View Post
I do figure that climate has had some effect. Perhaps a "jump starting" effect. Afterall, if all this growth were only about affordability, then why are places like Buffalo, Pittsburgh or the Prairie states not booming? They are even cheaper than Atlanta, Houston or Dallas.
Poor economic conditions (note that its the purely manufacturing oriented cities that have suffered the most.. an obsolete industry) are more likely, as no one will move where there is no work. Also, I'm sure for many, the decay and crime is a bit of a turn off.

And climate wise.. why so much growth in Atlanta and Houston, compared to say, Miami or San Francisco? These places seem to have much more desirable weather...

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Originally Posted by bricky
Canada is growing (not very much though, in relation to the sunbelt) because it is a rich country with a relatively open immigration system. Beijing and other Chinese cold cities are growing because the whole country is booming, and lots of infrastructure and infrastructure growth is in the established cities.
I don't know how Canada compares to just the Sunbelt, but it is one of the fastest growing (or it may be the fastest) of the industrialized nations, moreso than the US at least.

And as for China - it has a similar climate range to the US (actually, much more extreme, but whatever), and all the cities are booming economically, so growth population-wise seems to be following suit.

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Originally Posted by =antinimby
Everything is relative. The parts of Canada that is growing fastest are also its warmest, relatively speaking of course.
Actually - Alberta is the fastest growing province, per capita wise, but still colder than Souther BC, Ontario, Quebec, and the Maritimes. And well, the rest of the country is pretty much tundra haha.
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  #127  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2007, 3:02 AM
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Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
Poor economic conditions (note that its the purely manufacturing oriented cities that have suffered the most.. an obsolete industry) are more likely, as no one will move where there is no work. Also, I'm sure for many, the decay and crime is a bit of a turn off.

And climate wise.. why so much growth in Atlanta and Houston, compared to say, Miami or San Francisco? These places seem to have much more desirable weather...



I don't know how Canada compares to just the Sunbelt, but it is one of the fastest growing (or it may be the fastest) of the industrialized nations, moreso than the US at least.

And as for China - it has a similar climate range to the US (actually, much more extreme, but whatever), and all the cities are booming economically, so growth population-wise seems to be following suit.



Actually - Alberta is the fastest growing province, per capita wise, but still colder than Souther BC, Ontario, Quebec, and the Maritimes. And well, the rest of the country is pretty much tundra haha.
America's population is growing more quickly than Canada's on a percentage basis.

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications...k/geos/ca.html
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications...k/geos/us.html

The sunbelt is certainly growing faster than just about anywhere in Canada.

Not all the cities in China are booming equally. It's those relatively near the coast, and more convenient for shifting exports out of the country, that are growing more quickly.

Growth is a combination of many things. In the American sunbelt, climate appears to be one of them. The SF Bay Area and Miami are in fact part of the sunbelt, and were growing like crazy until they were effectively built out not too long ago. Read some statistics from the 1980s. The crazy growth was even then in the sunbelt, but the sunbelt being in California.

Alberta is growing because it's Canada's Saudi Arabia. Lots of natural resources. When did I ever say that growth was only because of the weather? I'm just saying that if weather had nothing to do with growth in the American context, then why is the sunbelt growing and not the rustbelt? What kind of economic base does Phoenix have? Why is it's economy more healthy than modern day Cleveland's? Sure, Cleveland lost a lot of manufacturing industries. But Phoenix never had much in the first place.
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  #128  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2007, 4:02 AM
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Originally Posted by edluva View Post
Master Shake - What Houston, Atlanta, and other sunbelters are doing is not spectacular. In fact, it's not realy that they're doing anything at all. The sunbelters are just the frontier to american capitalism's manifest destiny. Cheap land, cheap taxes, cheap energy, and lax regulation have always been our economy's nectar. Nothing mysterious in that.
The best post in this thread, IMO. In this country, we don't give far enough credit to sheer luck of the draw as we should. Look what eventually happened to cheap-as-hell Detroit, my hometown. Our socio-economic system giveth, and our socio-economic system taketh away just as easy, if not easier.

I think people should be more leery than ever about high 'growth.' Unlike the days when NYC, Philly, St. Louis...boomed, we are FAR more mobile and transient, and you can see this in the construction of these new cities. If you think the Exodus of Detroit looked ugly, just think of that happening, but to pure, unadulterated sprawl. You can reuse the abandonment of the established, pedestrian-built city. You can't do the same anywhere near as easily with the new 'growth', auto-centric suburban-based cities of today.
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  #129  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2007, 4:27 AM
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Just as Buenos Aires is the Paris of South America, Atlanta is the Paris of North America. Anyone who disagrees is a hater. Plain and simple.
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  #130  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2007, 4:41 AM
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^ i thought that was detroit... no, maybe that's just paris of the midwest.

actually, i really don't get your comment.
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  #131  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2007, 5:05 AM
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To many people from the rust belt just cannot accept that their governments economic policies are piss poor.

I promise you Lmich, if I had policy authority in Michigan you could have 3-4% unemployment, even with the fact that the autos are fucking your town.


You dont have to have population growth to have a decent economy, but you cannot have population growth without a decent economy.
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  #132  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2007, 5:54 AM
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I'm going to chime in because I love weather and here's the 10 day forecast for Atlanta...Saturday & Sunday, record cold, brrrrr...with the average high being 71, I think we may have some global warming on our hands.

Sat
Apr 07 Sunny 46°/25° 10 %
Sun
Apr 08 Partly Cloudy 54°/32° 10 %
Mon
Apr 09 Mostly Sunny 60°/38° 10 %
Tue
Apr 10 Mostly Cloudy 64°/52° 10 %
Wed
Apr 11 Scattered T-Storms 72°/43° 40 %
Thu
Apr 12 Sunny 69°/42° 10 %
Fri
Apr 13 Mostly Sunny 73°/52° 10 %
Sat
Apr 14 Showers 74°/52° 60 %
Sun
Apr 15 Scattered Showers 76°/52° 40 %
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  #133  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2007, 6:04 AM
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Originally Posted by bricky View Post
America's population is growing more quickly than Canada's on a percentage basis.

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications...k/geos/ca.html
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications...k/geos/us.html
I don't know what this is based on, but according to the Statscan on the 2006 census, the annual growth rate was 1.08%, and the highest of the G8 nations.

Quote:
The sunbelt is certainly growing faster than just about anywhere in Canada.
Alberta is growing at over 2% annually, and even higher in the Calgary-Edmonton corridor. If you have any data on growth rates of the sunbelt, I'd love to see it.

Quote:
Not all the cities in China are booming equally. It's those relatively near the coast, and more convenient for shifting exports out of the country, that are growing more quickly.

Alberta is growing because it's Canada's Saudi Arabia. Lots of natural resources. When did I ever say that growth was only because of the weather?
Now you get, its about economy. Moreso than weather at least.

Quote:
I'm just saying that if weather had nothing to do with growth in the American context, then why is the sunbelt growing and not the rustbelt? What kind of economic base does Phoenix have? Why is it's economy more healthy than modern day Cleveland's? Sure, Cleveland lost a lot of manufacturing industries. But Phoenix never had much in the first place.
Someone in the other thread brought up economic policies of the rustbelt, which may not be as attractive as those in the south. Also, the racial issues of the 60s seemed to help speed up the decay.. something cities like Phoenix didn't have to deal with. (but speaking of weather - who in their right mind would find Phoenix attractive in that sense? Its a fucking desert)
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  #134  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2007, 6:10 AM
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Originally Posted by bricky View Post
I'm just saying that if weather had nothing to do with growth in the American context, then why is the sunbelt growing and not the rustbelt? What kind of economic base does Phoenix have? Why is it's economy more healthy than modern day Cleveland's? Sure, Cleveland lost a lot of manufacturing industries. But Phoenix never had much in the first place.
good point. phoenix initially grew out of an agriculture based economy, therefore, very much dependent on the weather. later, as the car and airconditioning became widely available, phoenix spawned lucrative high tech, hospitality and service industries. although today it seems like a very large percentage of growth here is directly tied to servicing system that 'feeds' the machine - i.e. "the industry of being a boomtown in the sunbelt". also, i don't think you can rule out the "perception" of phoenix.....i hear it all the time from ohio/midwest transplants who now reside here.....they come with a perception that happiness, youth, prosperity and coolness are real attributes of the city.

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  #135  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2007, 6:17 AM
austin356 austin356 is offline
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Originally Posted by atl2phx View Post
good point. phoenix initially grew out of an agriculture based economy, therefore, very much dependent on the weather. later, as the car and airconditioning became widely available, phoenix spawned lucrative high tech, hospitality and service industries. although today it seems like a very large percentage of growth here if phoenix is directly tied to servicing system that 'feeds' the machine - the industry of being a boomtown in the sunbelt.
Thats the typical nature of suburbs. And most things from the IE to here are suburbs.
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  #136  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2007, 6:23 AM
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^ i thought that was detroit... no, maybe that's just paris of the midwest.

actually, i really don't get your comment.
Atlanta has sarcastically been compared to Paris in cartoons, comedy and my comment was just using these facetious pop culture references to make a comparison between the relationship of Atlanta to Paris with that of Buenos Aires to Paris . The comparison between Atlanta and Paris is often made because many Atlantans are so proud of their city that they promote it as a beautiful, buzzing metropolis (which is a good thing, better than the self-loathing that people on this forum say characterizes Detroit and Cleveland).
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  #137  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2007, 6:32 AM
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Originally Posted by austin356 View Post
To many people from the rust belt just cannot accept that their governments economic policies are piss poor.
And, you just can't even accept the idea that a lot of growth in the sunbelt is due to little more than trend and luck. Why don't you try and direct your attention to explaining away significant growth in high-tax, established metros and cities.

BTW, what's with this love of raw numbers? This happens whenever numbers come out. Phoenix and Las Vegas metros and cities continue to grow the fastest at 24.2% and 29.2%, respectively, since 2000 (as compared to Metro Atlanta's 21%), and yet they aren't even mentioned, both metros well over 1,000,000. Do percentage increases of large metros not mean anything, anymore?
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Last edited by LMich; Apr 7, 2007 at 6:49 AM.
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  #138  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2007, 7:20 AM
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Atlanta has sarcastically been compared to Paris in cartoons, comedy and my comment was just using these facetious pop culture references to make a comparison between the relationship of Atlanta to Paris with that of Buenos Aires to Paris . The comparison between Atlanta and Paris is often made because many Atlantans are so proud of their city that they promote it as a beautiful, buzzing metropolis (which is a good thing, better than the self-loathing that people on this forum say characterizes Detroit and Cleveland).
Optimism is one thing. Being completely unrealistic about where your city stands in the world is another thing entirely.
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  #139  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2007, 8:29 AM
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Optimism is one thing. Being completely unrealistic about where your city stands in the world is another thing entirely.
ohh, snap!

i think most are well aware of where atlanta's weak points are, especially on here. i also think that the majority of the city's/metro's populace are also aware of the same. (especially those hailing from somewhere else)

there are some benefits to the seemingly excessive boosterism and pride, as well - one being an "anything is possible" attitude. even with my limited background in travel, i think i can safely say that midtown and downtown atlanta suck for the most part, currently. downtown detroit is further along than downtown atlanta. (to me, that's saying something, no offense) but even that doesn't seem to be stopping people from moving there in droves, as the population of both of those districts is well over 40,000, split evenly, and growing at a rapid clip - just check the construction forums. few other cities can claim the amount of residential growth, southern or otherwise. the city is also the fastest growing part of the metro now; i can't stress this enough.

just give atlanta a decade or two; i think by then it will suprise even the most steadfast haters here.
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  #140  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2007, 9:45 AM
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the city is also the fastest growing part of the metro now; i can't stress this enough.
That is a very good point, and wasn't always true, and that people rarely think about.

That said, the city is still coming into its own far into the age of the automobile, so, it's really going to depend on which way Atlanta takes this development. And, for it to be healthy for Atlanta there is going to have to be more invested in rapid transit both more commuter rail, and light rail. I'm scared to think how much worse traffic will get if all of the new development is geared almost solely for the automobile. I mean, you've got an already sprawled, auto-centric city almost the exact same size as Detroit, but with about 377,000 less people. No doubt the city is going to continue to grow, but it could very easily strangle itself without increasing the right types of infastructure to meet the growth.
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