Dead Malls of Canada

[O-tacular]

What will become of Calgary’s Northhill mall without its’ precious SEARS?!


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[itom 987]

^ same floor tiles and ceilings as Edmonton's Westmount Mall.

[craneSpotter]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

its not as dead as some dead malls

Actually they just announced plans to do a big makeover on University Heights - plan on adding 350 units of rental housing - which is scarce in this city...

http://www.timescolonist.com/busines...tre-1.23128475

I just realized although I've been to every mall in Greater Victoria over the past year - I haven't been inside University Heights (other than Home Depot) for about 16 years!

[YYCguys]

Before Sears announced the liquidation sale, North Hill Mall seemed quite dead, foot traffic wise, except for the seniors wandering the hall. Now that the sale is in full swing, traffic has definitely picked up and people have a reason to go all the way to the end of the hall now. Likely, with Winners moving in recently, and Safeway and World Health Gym there, the mall will survive. I wonder if the Concorde deal with Sears, from years ago, to redevelop the department store property (because, AFAIK, Sears owns the land it sits on and doesn’t pay rent to the mall???) is now dead, or if Concorde will go ahead on its own. It would be so good if that plan would still be revived and realized!

[O-tacular]

Calgary’s Eau Claire market has been awaiting demolition for the better part of a decade now. But really it’s been a dead mall since the late 90’s.









But seriously how did they ever expect a mall that specializes in useless shit like this to make it long-term?

[speedog]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Calgary’s Eau Claire mall has been awaiting demolition for the better part of a decade now. But really it’s been a dead mall since the late 90’s.

Northland is about as dead, not sure how retailers in these places are still making a go of it.

[Jaws]

Originally Posted by Doug

Yes. I remember the first Superstore in BC (Kelowna) pening in the early 90s. Tim Hortons didn't hit BC until the early 90s either. Neither were in Alberta until the late 80s, but Loblaw's SuperValu brand was used on small format stores. Safeway and to a lesser extent Woodward's World of Foods more or less owned the grocery markets in both provinces until that time (Safeway acquired the Woodward's grocery stores in the mid 80s). Canadian Tire money didn't hit BC or Alberta until the mid 90s.

Tim Hortons was in Red Deer in ‘82-‘83. Superstore got to AB around 1985.

[ssiguy]

We have to remember that these dying malls are not just about changing shopping habits but also about changing demographics.

When were all these dead malls built? They were all built in the 60s/70s and ussually greatly expanded in the 1980s to the palaces you see today. At the time they were built in the middle of the booming susburbs but now those booming suburbs have gone from being Mom, Dad and 3 to 6 kids to just Mom and Dad. The kids have left home and taken their spending with them. These huge malls do not survive on food, pharmacy, and other essentials but rather on discretionary spending. The food/pharmacy maybe the anchors but not the lifeblood.

It's the younder people who do all the discretionary spending wanting the latest gadgets, clothing styles, and hip housewares. The elderly people overwhelmingly are past that stage and most of their spending is on essentials. For the young people moving into the homes of dyings parents of the 60s/70s/80s, they probably have at most 2 kids and many none at all..............the very shoppers the malls were built for have left home. All the new renovations and stores will never change the fact that the shoppers they were built for no longer exist.

Westmount in London is dead because it was built during this time but the city's 2 big malls are still doing OK.........Masonville & White Oaks precisely because they were built further out one in the extreme north where the city is growing and one in the extreme south where growth is slowing but very close to the 401 & 402 so it still can draw on regional shoppers.

[240glt]

Originally Posted by Doug

Yes. I remember the first Superstore in BC (Kelowna) pening in the early 90s. Tim Hortons didn't hit BC until the early 90s either. Neither were in Alberta until the late 80s, but Loblaw's SuperValu brand was used on small format stores. Safeway and to a lesser extent Woodward's World of Foods more or less owned the grocery markets in both provinces until that time (Safeway acquired the Woodward's grocery stores in the mid 80s). Canadian Tire money didn't hit BC or Alberta until the mid 90s.

I don't remember the Superstore in Kelowna. Are you sure you're not confusing it with Overwaitea ?

Tims was definitely in BC prior to the 90's. We used to stop at the one in Vernon on the way home from the ski hill for hot chocolate and a donut when we were kids, so it would have been there in the early 80's at least

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

We have to remember that these dying malls are not just about changing shopping habits but also about changing demographics.

When were all these dead malls built? They were all built in the 60s/70s and ussually greatly expanded in the 1980s to the palaces you see today. At the time they were built in the middle of the booming susburbs but now those booming suburbs have gone from being Mom, Dad and 3 to 6 kids to just Mom and Dad. The kids have left home and taken their spending with them. These huge malls do not survive on food, pharmacy, and other essentials but rather on discretionary spending. The food/pharmacy maybe the anchors but not the lifeblood.

It's the younder people who do all the discretionary spending wanting the latest gadgets, clothing styles, and hip housewares. The elderly people overwhelmingly are past that stage and most of their spending is on essentials. For the young people moving into the homes of dyings parents of the 60s/70s/80s, they probably have at most 2 kids and many none at all..............the very shoppers the malls were built for have left home. All the new renovations and stores will never change the fact that the shoppers they were built for no longer exist.

Westmount in London is dead because it was built during this time but the city's 2 big malls are still doing OK.........Masonville & White Oaks precisely because they were built further out one in the extreme north where the city is growing and one in the extreme south where growth is slowing but very close to the 401 & 402 so it still can draw on regional shoppers.

A lot of malls seem propped up by a lot of fast fashion type stores, as well as electronics stores.

People probably purchase and replace their clothing and electronics (eg. their phones) a lot more than they did in past decades.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

But seriously how did they ever expect a mall that specializes in useless shit like this to make it long-term?

That oil and vinegar bar is such a funny concept. I've never seen anything like it. Does it get a lot of customers walking in and out on a daily basis or is it empty through much of the day?

[casper]

I think this is the evolution of the small regional shopping mall.

In the 1970s, 80s and 90s Champlain mall was a small local shopping mall in East Vancouver. It's main anchor stores were The Bay Department store at one end and the SuperValu at the other end.

Around 2000 it was dying. The Bay pulled out.

They pulled down about 50-70% of the existing build and built townhouses. What was interesting is what happen to the rest of the shopping centre it was refurbished. The SuperValue become an Extra Foods and eventually an Independent Groccer. The grocery store and the mall hallway across from it remained unchanged.

In the old parking lot they built three commercial buildings, one with retail on the ground floor and medical offices above and the other two just retail. The outside was redone to have a northwest woods look to it.

All the shoe stores, fashion, jeweler etc. is long gone. It is all food (groceries, takeout, Starkbucks, produce maket) and services. A good number of national banners in there, however there are a number of local independents. The place is booming. I think the key thing is adapting to the new demographics.







Photos from shopping center web page: http://champlainsquare.ca/photos/

[ssiguy]

What I don't understand is why the development companies that losing money hand over fist with those dead malls, don't build residential towers on top of them. It would be a huge draw for our soaring seniors populations especially in colder climates. They would be able to truly live, work, and play in the winter months without having to brave the elements and the fear of falling in ice or when they no longer want/can drive.

Seniors are increasingly looking to downsize and malls are looking for shoppers so it seems like a match made in heaven but developers seem to only view malls as shopping/office centres but not the entire "living" developings they could be.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

What I don't understand is why the development companies that losing money hand over fist with those dead malls, don't build residential towers on top of them. It would be a huge draw for our soaring seniors populations especially in colder climates. They would be able to truly live, work, and play in the winter months without having to brave the elements and the fear of falling in ice or when they no longer want/can drive.

Seniors are increasingly looking to downsize and malls are looking for shoppers so it seems like a match made in heaven but developers seem to only view malls as shopping/office centres but not the entire "living" developings they could be.

Well people are talking about mixed use developments all the time. That wouldn't be a bad idea.

[casper]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

What I don't understand is why the development companies that losing money hand over fist with those dead malls, don't build residential towers on top of them. It would be a huge draw for our soaring seniors populations especially in colder climates. They would be able to truly live, work, and play in the winter months without having to brave the elements and the fear of falling in ice or when they no longer want/can drive.

Seniors are increasingly looking to downsize and malls are looking for shoppers so it seems like a match made in heaven but developers seem to only view malls as shopping/office centres but not the entire "living" developings they could be.

In Vancouver that is happening. The Champlain Mall example I gave is a good example of that for a very small mall.

Metrotown had that weird square that have the Save-On-Foods go down that route. Brentwood, Loughhead, Oakridge and Ricmhond Centre all have residential complete or in the works.

I think the problem in other parts of Canada is property values are depressed relative to Vancouver. Makes sense to hold on the the land and not do much of anything.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

What I don't understand is why the development companies that losing money hand over fist with those dead malls, don't build residential towers on top of them. It would be a huge draw for our soaring seniors populations especially in colder climates. They would be able to truly live, work, and play in the winter months without having to brave the elements and the fear of falling in ice or when they no longer want/can drive.

Seniors are increasingly looking to downsize and malls are looking for shoppers so it seems like a match made in heaven but developers seem to only view malls as shopping/office centres but not the entire "living" developings they could be.

It is happening but seniors don’t make for great clientele. Northhill mall in Calgary has condos attached to it and is right beside an lrt station. Some seniors live in them. Doesn’t change the fact it is one of the slowest malls in the city.

When I used to work at SEARS in Southcentre mall I got to know the routines and spending habits of the seniors that would visit the mall. They would walk over from their retirement condos about a block away and come before the stores even opened. They would walk the mall for exercise and eventually find their way to the cafe on the third floor of SEARS. By 1:00pm they were all gone (probably for nap time). I only ever saw them buy batteries and cordless phones. Contrary to popular belief they were not the ones keeping SEARS alive. It was still families back then. Most seniors do not have tons of spending money or the desire to buy new shit.

[ssiguy]

I do appreciate that seniors don't make great shoppers but I am talking about redoing the entire mall. For monsters like Westmount that would mean moving all the tenants on the second floor down to the main one and doing a complete conversion of the second floor to housing and/or retirement communities with extended care. The huge empty spots such as ex-Sears/Eatons/Zellers could be totally redone as residential towers.

This would bring thousands of seniors to the mall, condense the mall to a smaller space to give the appearance of being busier {a crowd draws a crowd} and would also get new workers from the extended care who also patronize the mall. The stores that would be left would be more essential driven such as pharmacy, grocery etc but also have some service like medical/dental/chiro, and community needs like a library branch or community centre. You would get rid of most of the mall and replace it with people and the remaining mall stores and services would see far better traffic.

Seeing London's Westmount is a good reference, there is a London reference to the above I am mentioning ............the Cherryhill Village Mall. When I was a kid it was called Westown Plaza Mall and was a relatively small mall and never one you would go or drive to but always did well because it is at the base of a huge cluster of apts with a large senior and student population. It was a mall that relied on providing the essentials of the people nearby many of whom didn't have a car or didn't really want to drive it much. It was always just a mall with a grocery store, pharmacy, library, and few other stores and today, despite all the changes in retail, it remains almost the exact same as it was in the 1960s/70s when it was built.

London is still building a lot of residential towers both rental and condo and you would think a place like Westmount would be ideal for such a transformation.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

• Video Link

I was in St. Thomas recently, and the downtown is in just as bad a shape as the mall. Almost nothing but abandoned storefronts along Talbot Street, particularly in the west half of downtown. It was my first time in the city in years, and first time since the Ford plant closed, and the city has never looked worse. Worst of all, almost no people at all. Almost a ghost town.

It's sad, really, though they've got a few good things still going for them.

[MolsonExport]

Westmount (where I first lived when I relocated to London) has a shitload of apartment slabs. I feel bad for all the oldsters living there, as the mall has gotten shittier by the hour. Everything moved south to the big box barf land at Southdale and Wonderland (which is growing all the time). The London way is to constantly rezone land on the periphery to retail, and suck the life out of what came beforehand.

There are a few surprises. Such as Sherwood Forest Mall, which should be dead given its extremely dated design (a la Honeydale Mall), but is thriving on account of the fact that there just is no (other) retail at all for 2-4 kms in any direction.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.00590...7i13312!8i6656


yeah, dt st thomas has cratered over the past decade. very sad to see. And it is only going to get worse with massive new big box barf planned for Wellington south of the 401 (including a full sized IKEA)

[memememe76]

In Metro Vancouver, pretty much every mall is being expanded with some sort of residential component. But there has to be demand before developers and the Cities take on such projects.

The Eau Claire in Calgary is an interesting case. I view it as less of a mall, and more of a quay or farmers market. The actual Calgary Farmers Market is really popular, even though it's in a very industrial area. The Eau Claire is located at a nice location and there are quite a few condo towers nearby. But quiet, nonetheless.