PHILADELPHIA | 30th Street Station District | 1,200 FT - 180 FT | 85 - 12 FLOORS

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by City Wide

I think that what you and the prior post, #117, are saying is probably true. But that begs the question of why would Amtrak and others go through the exercise of a master plan when very little if anything is actually planned? Its not like the plan came up with any radical ideas, like moving the exits ramps from I-76 or putting the suburban train lines under ground (both should have been considered), that would need long term planning to see them through.

And like you mentioned the Cira 2 site that is suggested would be built over existing tracks making its construction highly expensive and very doubtful, as long as there is other less complicated sites in the area to build on.

As much as I enjoy the prospect of what the master plan presents and the drawings/dreams that were released, in a nut shell it basically is saying the obvious---when market conditions call for it, the first buildings will be built on land not presently used for tracks, and then after that land is used up somebody could build over the tracks. What might actually get built is so far out in the future just about anything could have been proposed.

If another plan came out of the blue---the 76'ers wanting to build their own, basketball only dream arena over the tracks, or Google wanting to build an east coast campus----I'm quite sure Amtrak would be thrilled to sell them or anybody else, the air rights.

My prediction is that sometime in the next 5+ years SEPTA will work with others on rebuilding the underground connection to the station and that as construction starts up along JFK Blvd. that maybe there will be a push to move the buses to a built space somewhere around the station. Other then that I believe that this plan will just join the other past plans collecting dust. Whatever the market needs are, the plans Drexel has in its Schuylkill Yards concept will be able to handle them for a very long time. And its not like center city is full!

Yeah the cynic in me agrees. These "master plans" - of which the city has commissioned dozens (my favorite being the once every 5 years "Penns Landing Master Plan") - just seem to be an easy way to spend grant money. And SOM, or whatever architectural firm commissioned - is only happy to accept the enrichment. The money (hundreds of thousands - millions of dollars) probably helps subsidize some of their actual high profile projects that may be less profitable and more or less goes to young 3D artists/designers who spit out these beautiful, polished compositions that make skyscraper/development geeks like us salivate.

The extent of these master plans seems to me, and particularly this one: let's build some decks over the tracks, and then build some cool looking skyscrapers on said decks. I'll see you guys in 10 years.

[gttx]

Originally Posted by Londonee

Yeah the cynic in me agrees. These "master plans" - of which the city has commissioned dozens (my favorite being the once every 5 years "Penns Landing Master Plan") - just seem to be an easy way to spend grant money. And SOM, or whatever architectural firm commissioned - is only happy to accept the enrichment. The money (hundreds of thousands - millions of dollars) probably helps subsidize some of their actual high profile projects that may be less profitable and more or less goes to young 3D artists/designers who spit out these beautiful, polished compositions that make skyscraper/development geeks like us salivate.

The extent of these master plans seems to me, and particularly this one: let's build some decks over the tracks, and then build some cool looking skyscrapers on said decks. I'll see you guys in 10 years.

Ultimately the cynic in you may win out, but I can tell you that what you described is not what happened here. This was the latest in a long line of plans that have thus far been unrealized, but the impetus was to recognize what went wrong before and try to correct for that - in this case, by marshaling the key stakeholders to produce a joint planning effort, which has not happened before. Between Amtrak, SEPTA, Drexel, PennDOT, and Brandywine, every parcel around 30th Street Station and within the rail yards is accounted for, and they are the organizations who ultimately shaped the plan, even if SOM actually put pen to paper to draw it.

If it isn't already obvious, I am very close to this project. It wasn't some little thing just to subsidize more important work - this, in itself, is important, high-profile work. Sure, the final renderings are a bit pie-in-the-sky, but you ultimately need something to talk about and market beyond just a thick planning book (there are big technical appendices in addition to the public plan which document the facility, transportation operations, and economics). The renderings are a tiny fraction of the cost of a 2+ year effort by consulting firms.

Beyond that, I will just ignore the word "enrichment," because, well, ever been an architect?

[Boku]

Originally Posted by gttx

Ultimately the cynic in you may win out, but I can tell you that what you described is not what happened here. This was the latest in a long line of plans that have thus far been unrealized, but the impetus was to recognize what went wrong before and try to correct for that - in this case, by marshaling the key stakeholders to produce a joint planning effort, which has not happened before. Between Amtrak, SEPTA, Drexel, PennDOT, and Brandywine, every parcel around 30th Street Station and within the rail yards is accounted for, and they are the organizations who ultimately shaped the plan, even if SOM actually put pen to paper to draw it.

If it isn't already obvious, I am very close to this project. It wasn't some little thing just to subsidize more important work - this, in itself, is important, high-profile work. Sure, the final renderings are a bit pie-in-the-sky, but you ultimately need something to talk about and market beyond just a thick planning book (there are big technical appendices in addition to the public plan which document the facility, transportation operations, and economics). The renderings are a tiny fraction of the cost of a 2+ year effort by consulting firms.

Beyond that, I will just ignore the word "enrichment," because, well, ever been an architect?

Thank you for this. Obviously the renderings are meant to catch your eye and draw you to the text, and there may well never be a 1200-foot tall building there to grace the skyline, but to dismiss the entire plan as unrealistic, or that it was created just to line someone's pockets, isn't fair.

[City Wide]

Originally Posted by gttx

Ultimately the cynic in you may win out, but I can tell you that what you described is not what happened here. This was the latest in a long line of plans that have thus far been unrealized, but the impetus was to recognize what went wrong before and try to correct for that - in this case, by marshaling the key stakeholders to produce a joint planning effort, which has not happened before. Between Amtrak, SEPTA, Drexel, PennDOT, and Brandywine, every parcel around 30th Street Station and within the rail yards is accounted for, and they are the organizations who ultimately shaped the plan, even if SOM actually put pen to paper to draw it.

If it isn't already obvious, I am very close to this project. It wasn't some little thing just to subsidize more important work - this, in itself, is important, high-profile work. Sure, the final renderings are a bit pie-in-the-sky, but you ultimately need something to talk about and market beyond just a thick planning book (there are big technical appendices in addition to the public plan which document the facility, transportation operations, and economics). The renderings are a tiny fraction of the cost of a 2+ year effort by consulting firms.

Beyond that, I will just ignore the word "enrichment," because, well, ever been an architect?

Since you are close to this plan I'm glad that you weighting in.
Can you comment on my post above, #121. Or better yet, in a sentence or two, say what your take is on the end result of this plan and how it will be used for anything going forward? As an example, meaning, out of the discussions and in the plan itself is talk about improving the connection between the station and SEPTA, and I hope that starts tomorrow. But lets face it, a multi party, many month long planning exercise wasn't needed to realize that improvement was needed. What do you think will or might come out of this plan that wouldn't have happened in the natural course of development?

[gttx]

Originally Posted by City Wide

Since you are close to this plan I'm glad that you weighting in.
Can you comment on my post above, #121. Or better yet, in a sentence or two, say what your take is on the end result of this plan and how it will be used for anything going forward? As an example, meaning, out of the discussions and in the plan itself is talk about improving the connection between the station and SEPTA, and I hope that starts tomorrow. But lets face it, a multi party, many month long planning exercise wasn't needed to realize that improvement was needed. What do you think will or might come out of this plan that wouldn't have happened in the natural course of development?

The biggest thing that can come out of it is that the people who need to coordinate will do so, and that they will be all working from the same script.

With respect to the subway connection, for example, I think everyone intuitively knew that this was a priority, but just how much people wanted it - when compared to a long list of other priorities - was unclear. The plan helped shake out what the real near-term projects should be, with the goal of then setting up longer-term projects. Will it all happen exactly this way? No, of course not. But actions taken now should always be done with the goal of enabling future work, not getting in its way. It also galvanized the principle organizations to coordinate when seeking funding for projects from an array of sources, where alone they might be competing or even at odds with each other. I think the biggest "win" from the plan was that all 5 principles announced early phase projects when the plan was published last summer. I hope that make good on those promises.

Here is a more concrete example of the value of this sort of planning: Cira Centre is a project that is the realization of an older master plan for this district. While most of what was planned back then didn't happen, this early phase did. Unfortunately, since the plan was not done in concert with the broad group of stakeholders represented here, it stopped at that one building. What's more, the building is sited in a place that enabled simple development (ie, it avoids all rail infrastructure), but which ultimately complicates development within the rail yards, since the extension of 30th Street north just leads into the Cira Garage. If we ultimately want that road extending into the rail yards, it needs to perform some gymnastics that could have been avoided if everything had been agreed to, in concept, before Cira was built. The hope is that projects moving forward can always keep one eye on the future.

Another way to look at it might be that no one is willing to act without some guarantee that others will do the same.

[Gonzo the Great]

Originally Posted by Boku

Thank you for this. Obviously the renderings are meant to catch your eye and draw you to the text, and there may well never be a 1200-foot tall building there to grace the skyline, but to dismiss the entire plan as unrealistic, or that it was created just to line someone's pockets, isn't fair.

Yes and just like the other terminal tower plan , I envision this 1200' day dream to be the result of someone snorting cocaine with a
trench shovel . That's not to say NOTHING will be built but , for a lot of other proposed projects it's been the Alice in Wonderland
" eat me " shrinking cake , and over the 10/20 year development stage this is advertised to take I won't be surprised if the whole
fairytale ends up a few 300' high rise ......... Now , prove me wrong .

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by Gonzo the Great

Yes and just like the other terminal tower plan , I envision this 1200' day dream to be the result of someone snorting cocaine with a
trench shovel . That's not to say NOTHING will be built but , for a lot of other proposed projects it's been the Alice in Wonderland
" eat me " shrinking cake , and over the 10/20 year development stage this is advertised to take I won't be surprised if the whole
fairytale ends up a few 300' high rise ......... Now , prove me wrong .

There's another Terminal Tower Plan?

[summersm343]

We should be hearing more about the first development in this plan (Cira II site at the Northwest corner of 30th and JFK above the rail tracks) within the next few months.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

There's another Terminal Tower Plan?

I think he means Schuylkill Yards.

[TechTalkGuy]

............

[KevinFromTexas]

I wasn't sure if this had been posted here yet or not since I couldn't find it. Brandywine posted it on their Facebook page last July.


Brandywine Realty Trust - https://www.facebook.com/BrandywineR...type=1&theater

[SEFTA]

Loving that!

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by KevinFromTexas

I wasn't sure if this had been posted here yet or not since I couldn't find it. Brandywine posted it on their Facebook page last July.


Brandywine Realty Trust - https://www.facebook.com/BrandywineR...type=1&theater

Thanks for posting! This is actually showing the 30th Street District Master Plan, which is the entire plan for capping over the rail yards next to 30th Street Station. The grayed out section on the right of this image is Schuylkill Yards.

Here is the thread for the 30th Street District Plan - again, in all of the images you can see he grayed out Buildings are the Schuylkill Yards buildings:
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=223554

[TechTalkGuy]

Where's the FMC in that plan?

[Muji]

I didn't realize the plan also involved turning the Comcast Center 180 degrees

[KevinFromTexas]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Thanks for posting! This is actually showing the 30th Street District Master Plan, which is the entire plan for capping over the rail yards next to 30th Street Station. The grayed out section on the right of this image is Schuylkill Yards.

Here is the thread for the 30th Street District Plan - again, in all of the images you can see he grayed out Buildings are the Schuylkill Yards buildings:
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=223554

Oh, ok. I knew there were two projects, but I wasn't familiar enough with them both to know which was which. That's a pretty amazing addition to Philly's core.

I'll go ahead and move these posts over to that thread so there isn't any confusion.

[jayden]

So are they planning a new skyline on the other side of downtown?

[City Wide]

Originally Posted by jayden

So are they planning a new skyline on the other side of downtown?

I think to say "planning" isn't quite correct. Wishful thinking might be better. At this point in time just about anything is possible for the train yard/train tracks. There is NO shortage of long term and master plans; they come out like clock work every ten years or so.
But SY's by Drexel seems like it might have legs and slowly get built. And that might effect the skyline. Lets hope they build big, and build well.

[JohnIII]

I wonder why we never see major skyscraper development on the east side of downtown. From Girard Avenue to Washington Avenue; nothing east of 7th street is over 40 floors; heck its rarely over 30 floors. If we could have 2 super tall structures east of 7th street it would expand the entire skyline in an epic way. That was my principle hope for the real estate at 8th from Race to Vine Street; alas my attempts failed.

[gttx]

Originally Posted by Muji

I didn't realize the plan also involved turning the Comcast Center 180 degrees

Not sure I understand this comment...

Also, FMC is in the rendering, all the way at the right side.