Religion in Canada

[Acajack]

I don't see how people can say with such certainty that children and grandchildren of highly religious immigrants will become predominantly irreligious as a fait accompli.

I'd like to see some data on that if anyone has any because some studies for example show that the percentage of Muslims that are devout or Muslim women who wear traditional head coverings is on the increase in Canada.

Several generations "in", people of Italian, Lebanese and Portuguese ancestry in Canada are still tangibly more religious than older stock French Canadians or Anglo-Canadians. Their churches are all full, for example.

Looking at it from the other end of the lens, it would seem to me that if I were to move permanently to a Muslim country that is fairly traditionalist, the chances of my children and grandchildren becoming hyper-orthodox Muslims would still be fairly minimal. Though not outside the realm of possibility of course.

Admittedly, the trappings of a western society like Canada are more intuitively appealing to young people than a strict Islamic society, but still...

[1overcosc]

Children always take after their peers more than their parents. It's a natural element of human psychology and it's the reason why 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants lose so much of their homeland attitudes.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

The Chinese nd Koreans in Vancouver are very conservative socially and make up a huge part of the city's evangelical vote.

Vancouver has the highest rates of irreligion of Canadian metropolitan areas, and while I don't think StatsCan publishes data sets linking race and religion, I'd bet that the large number of Mainland Chinese immigrants in Greater Vancouver is big part of the reason why the metro has such a high rate of irreligion.

China is the most atheist country in the world my most studies, having overtaken European atheist heavyweights like Sweden, Norway, and Czechia.

[Acajack]

This article contains a lot of positive stuff, but regarding our recent line of discussion, this is quite interesting:

Over the past century, Canadian society became more secular and children became less religious than their parents. We assumed this would be true for the Muslim community as well, but this does not appear to be the case.

Our survey found that young Muslims are often more religious than their immigrant parents. For many, their religious identity is becoming more important to them – not less. At the same time, Canadian-born Muslims are now among the most likely to believe their community wants both integration and to remain distinct, suggesting the development of a unique “Canadian Muslim identity.” More than 90 per cent of young Muslims believe that “other cultures have a lot to teach us; contact is enriching.” Canada promises freedom of religion and young Muslims appear ready to take up this constitutional offer.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opin...ticle29774194/

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This article contains a lot of positive stuff, but regarding our recent line of discussion, this is quite interesting:

Over the past century, Canadian society became more secular and children became less religious than their parents. We assumed this would be true for the Muslim community as well, but this does not appear to be the case.

Our survey found that young Muslims are often more religious than their immigrant parents. For many, their religious identity is becoming more important to them – not less. At the same time, Canadian-born Muslims are now among the most likely to believe their community wants both integration and to remain distinct, suggesting the development of a unique “Canadian Muslim identity.” More than 90 per cent of young Muslims believe that “other cultures have a lot to teach us; contact is enriching.” Canada promises freedom of religion and young Muslims appear ready to take up this constitutional offer.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opin...ticle29774194/

I can see why children might be more religious than their immigrant parents, given the linkage to identity generally. The idea of a "Canadian Muslim identity" is intriguing, given the diversity of that faith group's origins. One thing we don't seem to hear much about is what percentage of the Muslim community is secular/non-practising and what role, if any, they play in the broader community.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Vancouver has the highest rates of irreligion of Canadian metropolitan areas, and while I don't think StatsCan publishes data sets linking race and religion, I'd bet that the large number of Mainland Chinese immigrants in Greater Vancouver is big part of the reason why the metro has such a high rate of irreligion.

True, though it's suspect he Chinese who are Christian are more likely to be evangelical.

[Docere]

No religion Vancouver CMA (2011):

Chinese 65.8%
Not a visible minority 46.2%
South Asian 5.6%
Filipino 3.9%

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I can see why children might be more religious than their immigrant parents, given the linkage to identity generally. The idea of a "Canadian Muslim identity" is intriguing, given the diversity of that faith group's origins. One thing we don't seem to hear much about is what percentage of the Muslim community is secular/non-practising and what role, if any, they play in the broader community.

I don't think this article mentions it specifically (if it did I missed it) but I've read before in other articles that the rise in Muslim "pride" (and also devotion) in many western countries is in reaction to the perception that discrimination and islamophobia are on the rise, that Muslims are unfairly labelled as "all terrorists", etc.

This is certainly plausible to some degree.

I mean, many analysts say that the decline of the North American Jewry was precipitated by the decline of anti-Semitism on this continent. Less hostility towards Jews and the fading of the perception that they were "the other guys" led to a higher level of assimilation and intermarriage.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Docere

No religion Vancouver CMA (2011):

Chinese 65.8%
Not a visible minority 46.2%
South Asian 5.6%
Filipino 3.9%

Oohh where did you get that data? I'd love to browse data linking race and irreligion.. (I'm a total stats nerd )

ahem.. Yes, that confirms what I suspected, that Chinese Canadians are disproportionately irreligious.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

One thing we don't seem to hear much about is what percentage of the Muslim community is secular/non-practising and what role, if any, they play in the broader community.

That's a difficult one. In a back of the napkin analysis I did last year, I noted that comparing the total size of the Islamic population in Ottawa with the number of active mosques in the city and the amount of traffic that emerges around them does suggest that only a small number of Muslims in Ottawa go to mosque regularly, although that may not be saying much.. from what I gather from my limited knowledge of theology, private prayers in your own home is more of a thing in Muslim tradition than in Jewish or Christian tradition.

Anecdotally most Canadian Muslims I know personally aren't particularly religious. There are three Muslims in my division at work and I couldn't help but notice they were all eating at our Monday breakfast meeting even though it's Ramadan right now. But anecdotes are just anecdotes, so...

[Docere]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Oohh where did you get that data? I'd love to browse data linking race and irreligion.. (I'm a total stats nerd )

ahem.. Yes, that confirms what I suspected, that Chinese Canadians are disproportionately irreligious.

http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/nhs-enm/2...NAMEE=&VNAMEF=

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

That's a difficult one. In a back of the napkin analysis I did last year, I noted that comparing the total size of the Islamic population in Ottawa with the number of active mosques in the city and the amount of traffic that emerges around them does suggest that only a small number of Muslims in Ottawa go to mosque regularly, although that may not be saying much.. from what I gather from my limited knowledge of theology, private prayers in your own home is more of a thing in Muslim tradition than in Jewish or Christian tradition.

Anecdotally most Canadian Muslims I know personally aren't particularly religious. There are three Muslims in my division at work and I couldn't help but notice they were all eating at our Monday breakfast meeting even though it's Ramadan right now. But anecdotes are just anecdotes, so...

The vast majority of Muslims I know could be said to be fairly secular in public life. Though most do observe Ramadan to some degree, and don't eat pork or drink alcohol. But the women don't "cover up" and will generally dress western, nor do they ask for prayer time or prayer rooms at work. Some of them even bring their kids to the office Christmas party. In a sense they remind me of my parents' generation Catholics who only had a few observable traits outside of the home and church: stuff like saying grace before every meal and not eating meat on Fridays (later scaled down to Good Friday only).

Jews I grew up with were also like this.

That said, out of all of the religious people who are more devout than this and demand a higher level of accommodation for their faith, Muslims do make up a disproportionate share of those I have known. Second place would probably go to Jehovah's Witnesses.

In both cases we're only talking about relatively small numbers of course, but it's still noticeably more than other groups where the number is generally zero.

[Docere]

Angus Reid poll on religion in Canada.

http://angusreid.org/religion-in-canada-150/

They classify Canadians into four groupings:

Nonbelievers (19%)
Spiritually uncertain (30%)
Privately faithful (30%)
Religiously committed (21%)

Quebec is the lowest for religiously committed but the less religious side are more spiritually uncertain than nonbelievers.

BC has the most nonbelievers (27%).

The Prairie provinces have the most religiously committed: Saskatchewan (32%), Alberta (29%) and Manitoba (28%).

[Acajack]

I've mentioned previously that the rise in devout believers of non-Christian religions in Canada and other western countries is leading to a "me too" effect among Christians who are today emboldened to perhaps demand more accommodation in the public sphere for their beliefs than they might have in the recent past.

Here is an interesting example from France, the hitherto traditional land of "here-is-full-frontal-nudity-on-your-TV-to-accompany-your-breakfast-cereal":

http://www.leparisien.fr/senlis-6030...17-7279779.php

For those who can't read French: a Catholic school demanded and obtained the censorship of a (IMO fairly innocuous) movie poster that it considered to be inappropriate.

Are people still going to tell me that my little theory is bunk?

[Acajack]

Other link does not work.

This one does:
http://www.lexpress.fr/culture/cinem...s_1946086.html

[lio45]

Damn, I voted "None" instead of "Other/Pastafarian", how come?!?!?

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I mean, this is like showing up late to a German's house and leaving a mess when you leave. Or telling a Chinese person that your children are so much more talented and better behaved than their's. It's just not done.

Well, leaving a mess in someone's house as a guest or bragging about how much better your children are than someone else's isn't exactly viewed positively in Canada either...

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Children always take after their peers more than their parents. It's a natural element of human psychology and it's the reason why 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants lose so much of their homeland attitudes.

True, and that's why teenagers rebelling or reacting against their upbringing if they see it as at odds with how they'd want to fit in to wider society, or seeing their parents as uncool is such a cliche. You don't even have to bring immigrant versus non-immigrant into this to notice it, for within the native-born in society you always hear all that talk about cultural generational gaps, millenials vs. gen X vs. boomers, etc.

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Vancouver has the highest rates of irreligion of Canadian metropolitan areas, and while I don't think StatsCan publishes data sets linking race and religion, I'd bet that the large number of Mainland Chinese immigrants in Greater Vancouver is big part of the reason why the metro has such a high rate of irreligion.

China is the most atheist country in the world my most studies, having overtaken European atheist heavyweights like Sweden, Norway, and Czechia.

Originally Posted by Docere

Angus Reid poll on religion in Canada.

http://angusreid.org/religion-in-canada-150/

They classify Canadians into four groupings:

Nonbelievers (19%)
Spiritually uncertain (30%)
Privately faithful (30%)
Religiously committed (21%)

Quebec is the lowest for religiously committed but the less religious side are more spiritually uncertain than nonbelievers.

BC has the most nonbelievers (27%).

The Prairie provinces have the most religiously committed: Saskatchewan (32%), Alberta (29%) and Manitoba (28%).

The west coast of North America, not just BC itself, is more irreligious than places more inland or farther east, broadly speaking. I mean, the Pacific Northwest is known as the more irreligious part of the US, and also the Yukon territory is also highly irreligious.

[Gresto]

Originally Posted by Docere

They classify Canadians into four groupings:

Nonbelievers (19%)
Spiritually uncertain (30%)
Privately faithful (30%)
Religiously committed (21%)

I wonder under which rubric agnosticism goes. I would place it under "Nonbelievers", but it is by definition marked by uncertainty, or perhaps disinterest in the subject, whereas the more commited, doctrinaire atheists are as cemented in their position as fundamentalist theists of all stripes.

[BIMBAM]

Originally Posted by Gresto

I wonder under which rubric agnosticism goes. I would place it under "Nonbelievers", but it is by definition marked by uncertainty, or perhaps disinterest in the subject, whereas the more commited, doctrinaire atheists are as cemented in their position as fundamentalist theists of all stripes.

Atheism and agnosticism are not positions along the same spectrum. One, agnosticism, is a knowledge statement, and the other describes the person's belief. An agnostic atheist, for example, would be saying that they cannot know whether gods do or do not exist, just as they cannot know there are not unicorns, but they do not believe, or have faith, that they do. An agnostic theist would be making the same knowledge statement, but have the opposite belief position. I don't think there is a word for someone who just won't say what their belief is either way.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I've mentioned previously that the rise in devout believers of non-Christian religions in Canada and other western countries is leading to a "me too" effect among Christians who are today emboldened to perhaps demand more accommodation in the public sphere for their beliefs than they might have in the recent past.

Here is an interesting example from France, the hitherto traditional land of "here-is-full-frontal-nudity-on-your-TV-to-accompany-your-breakfast-cereal":

http://www.leparisien.fr/senlis-6030...17-7279779.php

For those who can't read French: a Catholic school demanded and obtained the censorship of a (IMO fairly innocuous) movie poster that it considered to be inappropriate.

Are people still going to tell me that my little theory is bunk?

Bringing this thread back from the dead...

In terms of Christian religions coming back in force and reacting to the increase in debates about religion in the public sphere, à la "me too!", surprising news has come out of France, where there is considerable angst over Charlie Hebdo cartoons, and freedom of speech and the right to mock anything you want.

Now it turns out that the Catholic leadership is starting to say they're not fond of the cartoons (that often mock Jesus or the Peope) either. Blasphemy is back, baby!

I had predicted a few years ago that the power play by minority religions for acceptance in the public sphere could lead to an "us too" resurgence among the majority's (generally former) religions.

Coming soon to a Canada near you?