Sports in Canadian culture

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by EdFromOttawa

Ugh NFL in Toronto. Yet another reason to absolutely hate the city.

Please god let this not happen; do not want that over-commercialized American circle-jerk in my country.

If you hate the city, then screw what you think, more reason for us to get it since that's what the insecure haters don't want us to have...

[esquire]

So let's suspend our disbelief for a moment and assume that MLSE gets the Bills before 2020. Where are they going to play given that by then there will be a natural grass baseball playing surface in the Rogers Centre that cannot be sullied by the presence of football players? Or is the NFL exempt from that policy?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

So let's suspend our disbelief for a moment and assume that MLSE gets the Bills before 2020. Where are they going to play given that by then there will be a natural grass baseball playing surface in the Rogers Centre that cannot be sullied by the presence of football players? Or is the NFL exempt from that policy?

The NFL would never go to Toronto if Rogers was the stadium for 8 (or 9) home games a year. It's way too small.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by EdFromOttawa

What I don't understand is your wannabe Americanism.

The NFL is junk. Worse, it's junk that everyone in Toronto seems to desperately want, but then noone wants to actually go to games (for ridiculous reasons like 'the Bills suck' or 'it's not our team'; both of which are highly indicative of a weak hardcore fanbase).

We may suffer from 'little brother syndrome', but Toronto is guilty of a Little Napoleon Complex, seemingly exuding a desperate neediness for 'the big show'; like a prized ornament on the shelf.

I would prefer the NFL not come to Toronto as I would rather see the CFL strengthened across the country - including in southern Ontario.

That said it is unfair to characterize The Architect in this way as he is far from a wannabe American and is actually a strong supporter of the CFL.

Wannabe Americans exist all over Canada, not just in Toronto.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by esquire

So let's suspend our disbelief for a moment and assume that MLSE gets the Bills before 2020. Where are they going to play given that by then there will be a natural grass baseball playing surface in the Rogers Centre that cannot be sullied by the presence of football players? Or is the NFL exempt from that policy?

They wouldn't be exempt, they'd have to play in an 800 million plus privately funded stadium. No Fed money gonna go to that.

But they can dream on, because if Jim Kelly can raise the cash there's no way he won't be awarded the team. But if it goes to auction it could be awarded to the highest bidder but I can't see the Toronto group being a popular choice in this "fight"

[mistercorporate]

According to one of the articles posted there's already plans for a 2nd stadium with private money. Not to mention there are plans for a 2nd stadium regardless due to the potential 2024 Olympic bid.

[The_Architect]

Originally Posted by esquire

So let's suspend our disbelief for a moment and assume that MLSE gets the Bills before 2020. Where are they going to play given that by then there will be a natural grass baseball playing surface in the Rogers Centre that cannot be sullied by the presence of football players? Or is the NFL exempt from that policy?

Toronto would need a new stadium, because the Skydome's max capacity for football (54,000) would be the smallest in the NFL, and not by a small margin (the next two smallest, Soldier Field and the O.co Coliseum are over 60,000). They would need to build a new football-specific stadium. If that was the case, I'd hope they'd make it be able to host both Canadian and American size fields.

[The_Architect]

Originally Posted by acajack

i would prefer the nfl not come to toronto as i would rather see the cfl strengthened across the country - including in southern ontario.

That said it is unfair to characterize the architect in this way as he is far from a wannabe american and is actually a strong supporter of the cfl.

Wannabe americans exist all over canada, not just in toronto.

<3

[elly63]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

According to one of the articles posted there's already plans for a 2nd stadium with private money. Not to mention there are plans for a 2nd stadium regardless due to the potential 2024 Olympic bid.

Do you think the Feds will give money towards an Olympic stadium that will become home to an NFL franchise, I don't.

[esquire]

If it were a matter of just acquiring a franchise, then I think Toronto would be in a great position to get a NFL team. But the cost of a new NFL stadium is absolutely backbreaking... when you consider the cost of new NFL stadiums and higher construction costs in Canada, I can't see a facility getting built for under $1 billion, minimum.

US cities are getting new stadiums mainly because the municipal/state governments are giving in to the usual pro sports extortion of "build us a stadium or we'll move". However, governments in Canada are a lot less inclined to subsidize that sort of thing... a subsidy for a NFL stadium be a non-starter for the feds, and it's doubtful that the political will is there for the province and city to subsidize it. So MLSE is pretty much on its own when it comes to paying for a stadium (apart from indirect subsidies like maybe transit or road improvements).

Would the NFL in Toronto be lucrative enough to prompt a billion-dollar plus stadium construction project?

[esquire]

Originally Posted by elly63

Do you think the Feds will give money towards an Olympic stadium that will become home to an NFL franchise, I don't.

Probably. For some reason governments will happily throw money at the Olympics/Pan-Am/Commonwealth games. It would probably be cheaper for Canada to just forgo the pretense of hosting the Olympics (which would inevitably cost billions) and pay for the construction of a football stadium on the condition that it be designed for, and made available to the NFL, CFL and national soccer programs.

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by elly63

Do you think the Feds will give money towards an Olympic stadium that will become home to an NFL franchise, I don't.

They'd probably require their funding to be paid back by the private group before it could be used for that purpose. Anything less could end up being a bit of political suicide in much of the rest of the country (waste of taxpayer money, welfare for rich people, etc).

In any case , with the CFL on a fairly decent assent in popularity again, it could make the whole situation interesting. I know of a fair number of people who have dropped Rogers over the last while... If a permanent plan comes forward that really does treaten the CFL, there could be a bit of a backlash (stronger in some parts of the country than others of course). If everything went as planned and Toronto got an NFL team, it would be 2020 at the very earliest, which is a lot of time for change to occur (there'd be another CFL media contract before then, and this next one already basically tripled from the previous).

Kind of odd timing for the announcement though, no? Grey Cup Weekend? Really?

[elly63]

Think of those groups like Bread not Circuses who protested funding for an Olympic bid and how much grief they caused. Multiply that by ten to get the amount of special interest groups that would get behind this to protest funding a stadium for the biggest sports and money making business in the world.

It would be political suicide for the Federal government to give any money to something that would benefit the NFL. Not just patriotic or CFL reasons, but the fact that such a profitable business should be able to fund this thing themselves.

Edit: just read the above post and funny we both used the term political suicide, because that is exactly what it would be, on many levels. Would Quebec then want money to bring back the Expos?

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Nathan

Kind of odd timing for the announcement though, no? Grey Cup Weekend? Really?

Will be interesting to see the TV numbers, should be down because of the blowout, providing fodder for the fifth columnist haterz.

[esquire]

^ It isn't necessarily political suicide to build a publicly-funded pro sports stadium. Investors Group Field is essentially that... the province fronted almost all of the money in the form of a loan that will be paid back over decades.

That said, it is more politically expedient to justify the expense for a beloved century-old community-owned public institution that had a decrepit home, as compared to building one for a new MLSE business venture that wants something more profitable than the 25-year old facility that only recently lost its new stadium smell.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Nathan

Kind of odd timing for the announcement though, no? Grey Cup Weekend? Really?

As the Star writer pointed out, MLSE is firing shots across the bow now. No more diplomacy.

Personally, it doesn't bother me if the NFL comes to Toronto. But why Rogers and MLSE have to go out of their way to spite the Argos and the CFL is beyond me... the Argos are no threat whatsoever to their ambitions and could easily co-exist with a NFL team. Yet for some reason that isn't good enough for them.

For that reason, I will not spend another dime on anything owned by Rogers or MLSE if I can help it.

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by elly63

Do you think the Feds will give money towards an Olympic stadium that will become home to an NFL franchise, I don't.

Who said the Feds will pay for a stadium, they will certainly finance parts of any Olympic bid, but the province can pay for a stadium.

[WhipperSnapper]

Calling fans of the game for wanting to be a part of the uppermost league out there wannabe Americans is as dumb patroitism as buying only made in Canada. I don't like football and couldn't care less if all leagues disappeared.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by elly63

Think of those groups like Bread not Circuses who protested funding for an Olympic bid and how much grief they caused. Multiply that by ten to get the amount of special interest groups that would get behind this to protest funding a stadium for the biggest sports and money making business in the world.

It would be political suicide for the Federal government to give any money to something that would benefit the NFL. Not just patriotic or CFL reasons, but the fact that such a profitable business should be able to fund this thing themselves.

Edit: just read the above post and funny we both used the term political suicide, because that is exactly what it would be, on many levels. Would Quebec then want money to bring back the Expos?

I can only see a huge new NFL-suitable stadium built in Toronto with public funds if Canada gets the World Cup or the Summer Olympics. As others have said, our governments seem to love this stuff and it seems sellable to the public.

In the absence of a major international event that needs a big stadium, then public funds will be impossible to get.

Just look at how impossible it is to get federal funds for NHL arenas, and that's the national sport and by far the most popular one in the country. Plus NHL arenas are used for other events like concerts, and sports other than NHL hockey.

What other events held on an annual basis in Toronto require a 75,000 seat outdoor stadium venue?

In many U.S. cities the NFL stadiums are used by college teams and other sports, but we don't have as big a spectator sports culture in Canada so an NFL-sized stadium in Toronto would almost certainly sit empty for 355 days a year.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ It isn't necessarily political suicide to build a publicly-funded pro sports stadium. Investors Group Field is essentially that... the province fronted almost all of the money in the form of a loan that will be paid back over decades.

But to build one for a mega profitable American business that would threaten a culturally significant Canadian business, can't see it. Maybe provincial money, but never federal and with all the SIGs coming out of the woodwork would be difficult in Ontario as well.