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  #201  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2018, 1:38 AM
kwoldtimer kwoldtimer is offline
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Off topic, but I'm wondering whether we might not end up with the worst of both worlds - increased imports from the USA with supply managment still in place for a reduced domestic industry?
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  #202  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2018, 1:54 AM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
What do you want? Government cheese like they have in the US, a butter mountain like they have in Europe, let a 15 billion dollar industry go under, taxpayer subsidies like they have in most countries? Almost every sector of the economy is subsidized or protected somehow. It isn't a perfect system, but any replacement should be more thoughtfully done then trying to respond to Baby Don's every tantrum.
It doesn't really matter what you do as long as supply management is gone - dairy is not a nationally important industry and does not need protection. There are plenty of other industries that have to deal with boom and bust cycles, you didn't hear oil producers calling for supply management when oil hit $30 a barrel though.

But, the OK way forward as I said would be to scrap supply management but tariff any subsidized imports so that our producers can operate on a level playing field.

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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
Off topic, but I'm wondering whether we might not end up with the worst of both worlds - increased imports from the USA with supply managment still in place for a reduced domestic industry?
That's exactly what we'll get. Better to rip the band aid off and get a better trade deal than this wishy washy compromise. We'd be more credible when we ourselves complain about tariffs ourselves too, as right now we do not practice what we preach.
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  #203  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2018, 2:03 AM
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I'll only accept abandoning supply management if the US stops subsidizing their dairy industry to the point of overproduction. If we're going to get rid of our government interference, they have to get rid of their government interference.
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  #204  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2018, 2:06 AM
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Who cares? If we supply managed every industry that other governments intefered with, we'd have an entirely supply managed economy.
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  #205  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2018, 2:10 AM
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There's one essential of life that we take too much for granted. Food. If something big ever happens with food supply, we need to be able to feed ourselves. It's foolish to become dependent on another nation for food. It's a matter of survival to have domestic production. I think there should be protections to ensure the survival of even more agricultural sectors.
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  #206  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2018, 2:20 AM
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
It doesn't really matter what you do as long as supply management is gone - dairy is not a nationally important industry and does not need protection. There are plenty of other industries that have to deal with boom and bust cycles, you didn't hear oil producers calling for supply management when oil hit $30 a barrel though.
The oil industry gets 3B a year in subsidies and tax credits. Plus oil doesn't go bad if you leave it in the ground when prices are low.
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  #207  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2018, 2:21 AM
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Dairy is not going to make it or break it from a food security perspective. Doomsday scenarios will not see the entire Canadian population subsisting on milk and cheese.

If we care about food security, let's invest in a strategic grain reserve. Or anything else that actually makes sense. Protecting milk & cheese & eggs is not the way to achieve food security.

Lots of propaganda in here from Canadians brain washed by the dairy industry. It isn't better quality, and we can survive without the "15 billion dollar industry" - which equates to a half a percent of our GDP. If the entire industry went away tomorrow I doubt any Canadian who isn't a dairy farmer would feel any impact.
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  #208  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2018, 2:23 AM
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Why not supply manage every thing then? Communism for all!

It cannot be said enough, anyone who supports supply management is economically illiterate.
Dammit government interference is only good when it comes to providing subsidies to big oil or bailing out pipeline companies!
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  #209  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2018, 2:26 AM
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If we care about food security, let's invest in a strategic grain reserve.
Saudi Arabia did that in 2011. Harper sold them the Wheat Board.
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  #210  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2018, 2:27 AM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
The oil industry gets 3B a year in subsidies and tax credits. Plus oil doesn't go bad if you leave it in the ground when prices are low.
By the same token, 18 million working Canadians received a $1,775 tax credit in 2017 costing the Federal government 31 billion dollars (personal exemption).

Many tax credits in the mining and natural resource sectors encourage prospecting to discount later production costs using upfront capital expenditures. If those tax breaks didn't exist, large scale natural resource and mining projects would never happen. I can guarantee those "tax credits" that go to these industries pay for themselves many times over with the production they encourage.

What's 0 percent of 0 again?

The same argument doesn't apply to supply management, because Canadian citizens are forced to prop up the uncompetitive cartel.
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  #211  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2018, 2:30 AM
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Yes, we should have the American system, where more dairy is produced than required resulting in it being under-priced, dairy farmers are underpaid (and therefore receive welfare) and excess dairy gets thrown out or poured down drains. You know, capitalism!
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  #212  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2018, 2:30 AM
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Dammit government interference is only good when it comes to providing subsidies to big oil or bailing out pipeline companies!
That's the best you've got? No one in the oil industry wanted that bailout, all they want is the opposite of what the dairy industry wants - market price for their product. If Ontario was blocking a milk pipeline from Quebec and not getting that pipeline built would cost the country tens of billions of dollars a year, maybe your comparison would be valid. But that's not the case so it's just an irrelevant diversion.
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  #213  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2018, 2:33 AM
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You can tell by this thread how effective the dairy cartel has been in pushing their narrative to canadians that they are the last great hope for

i) food security
ii) quality dairy products
iii) avoiding utter socio-economy collapse

Man, telecommunications companies like Rogers & Telus should hire these people to market their telecom. Imagine Canadians defending rogers & bell canada prices because they are so important to our nation!
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  #214  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2018, 2:34 AM
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Originally Posted by vid View Post
Yes, we should have the American system, where more dairy is produced than required resulting in it being under-priced, dairy farmers are underpaid (and therefore receive welfare) and excess dairy gets thrown out or poured down drains. You know, capitalism!
So we should supply manage the whole economy because it's 'better'? You know, Communism! Where everyone is equally poor!
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  #215  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2018, 2:36 AM
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Once we eliminate supply management, what will former dairy farmers do, and how will they get to the point where they're doing it?

Where is the guarantee that eliminating supply management will lead to greater prosperity for American dairy farmers?

If we adopt the same system as the US, wouldn't oversupply and government relief become an issue in our economy too or is there something other than supply management that would lead to a more balanced supply and demand here in contrast to the industry stateside?

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So we should supply manage the whole economy because it's 'better'? You know, Communism! Where everyone is equally poor!
It's all or nothing with you, isn't it? I guess I can't complain, I was doing this to Lio and Acajack in another discussion over the weekend. As shitposters on my city's newspaper website used to say, "Freedom of speech just my opinion thank you".
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  #216  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2018, 2:42 AM
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Because let's be honest here, if we're going to have this discussion with the collective belief that supply management is wrong, then we should be discussing not the merits of that system but the process of transitioning away from it. Do we want a hard SMexit or a soft SMexit?
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  #217  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2018, 2:42 AM
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After supply management goes away, dairy farmers can either choose to compete with their operations, or close their farms. Why would anyone care either way? There are about 10k dairy farms in canada. Imagine the federal government paid 10,000 canadians to break sticks all day. Should we care what these 10,000 canadians do once we take away their stick breaking handout? Who cares?

Why would any canadian care about the prosperity of american farmers? Aagain, who cares?

Also, why would we adopt the same system as the usa? It's a stupid system. We would never go for that.
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  #218  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2018, 2:43 AM
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Why shouldn't it be all or nothing? Why treat dairy farmers differently? If you think it's logical to supply manage one industry it must be logical to supply manage all industry, ie Communism.
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  #219  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2018, 2:44 AM
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Originally Posted by vid View Post
Because let's be honest here, if we're going to have this discussion with the collective belief that supply management is wrong, then we should be discussing not the merits of that system but the process of transitioning away from it. Do we want a hard SMexit or a soft SMexit?
in fairness to farmers who have been dependant upon the system for a while, lets do a smooth transition. notify them that we are phasing it out, give them their same market share for a few years (maybe 5), and after that, notify them that they will have to compete on the open market.

5 years is plenty of time to make decisions, and certainly more time than poor taxi drivers had to compete with disruptive industries like uber.
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  #220  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2018, 2:45 AM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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Because let's be honest here, if we're going to have this discussion with the collective belief that supply management is wrong, then we should be discussing not the merits of that system but the process of transitioning away from it. Do we want a hard SMexit or a soft SMexit?
As I said before, tariff the subsidized imports. That should be perfectly legal with the WTO and will give them a level playing field. If they still can't compete despite the natural advantage they have then... why exactly we're we supporting them?
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