Washington Post: Nonprofit group proposes merging St. Louis city with county

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by eschaton

In a lot of cities, property taxes are lower because income taxes are higher.

but chicago has no city income tax. we only have federal and state income tax in illinois.

property taxes are still typically higher in suburbia here.

[dave8721]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

but chicago has no city income state. we only have federal and state income tax in illinois.

property taxes are still typically higher in suburbia.

In Miami's case I specifically meant affluent cities. In that case the property tax rate is lower because due to the high property values, a lower rate can generate as much tax revenue as needed. For example a city of 50,000 with a median home value of 200K vs one with a population of 50,000 and
a median home value of $2 million require the same services so City B's $2 million home wouldn't need to have taxes any higher than City A's $200k home. Hence why wealthy areas secede and form their own enclaves (see Key Biscayne, Bal Harbour...etc). For an extreme example of a Miami suburb, the median sale price in Indian Creek Village was $27 million. Obviously their tax rate would not need to be very high to provide the services they need. They still pay taxes to the unified Countywide school district but their city-specific taxes are quite low considering their property values.
The City of Miami has a high tax rate because it is a small 36 square mile area with 3/4 of that area being basically ghettos with wealth along a strip near the water. Almost all the wealth is outside the city limits.

[Vlajos]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

but chicago has no city income tax. we only have federal and state income tax in illinois.

property taxes are still typically higher in suburbia here.

I think Chicago's vs. the suburbs and rural residential RE taxes are lower by a significant margin in Illinois. Probably due to the huge RE tax base from commercial property in Chicago. The City collects a lot from office towers and can have a lower residential tax rate.

I have family in Elgin whose house is worth about 1/3 of mine and we pay only about 20% more in RE taxes than they do.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by dave8721

In Miami's case I specifically meant affluent cities. In that case the property tax rate is lower because due to the high property values, a lower rate can generate as much tax revenue as needed. For example a city of 50,000 with a median home value of 200K vs one with a population of 50,000 and
a median home value of $2 million require the same services so City B's $2 million home wouldn't need to have taxes any higher than City A's $200k home.

i'm not talking about property tax rates, just the total property tax to be paid for a given property.

take a $500K house in the city of chicago and a $500K house in suburban chicagoland. the suburban house will almost certainly pay more in property taxes than the city house.

[Northern Light]

FWIW, taxes on single family homes are much higher in Toronto's suburbs.

Generally in absolute terms and even moreso in rates.

This is a function of high levels of commercial tax revenue in the City relative to its suburban peer group.

Greater density also helps.

[Emprise du Lion]

Originally Posted by Vlajos

I think Chicago's vs. the suburbs and rural residential RE taxes are lower by a significant margin in Illinois. Probably due to the huge RE tax base from commercial property in Chicago. The City collects a lot from office towers and can have a lower residential tax rate.

I have family in Elgin whose house is worth about 1/3 of mine and we pay only about 20% more in RE taxes than they do.

You've likely hit the nail on the head. Turning back to metro St. Louis to highlight an example, Fairview Heights, IL does not levy property taxes on homeowners because they don't need to. This is because the city makes so much tax money off of the St. Clair Square Mall and the plethora of big box retail that they don't have a need for their own property tax.

[skyscraperpage17]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

but chicago has no city income tax. we only have federal and state income tax in illinois.

property taxes are still typically higher in suburbia here.

Doesn't Chicago also have a 10% salea tax?

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by skyscraperpage17

Doesn't Chicago also have a 10% salea tax?

Yes, but so do the suburbs. At least the cook county ones.

So that's a wash city vs. Cook burbs, and property taxes are still higher out there.

Vlajos' point about the city being able to siphon off MASSIVE amounts of money from downtown commercial property probably explains some of the discrepancy. That and the fact that the city, with 2.7M people, just has inherent economies of scale that the little tiny burbs aren't afforded because they are little and tiny.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

i'm not talking about property tax rates, just the total property tax to be paid for a given property.

take a $500K house in the city of chicago and a $500K house in suburban chicagoland. the suburban house will almost certainly pay more in property taxes than the city house.

But that's an idiotic comparison. The proper comparison would be between a certain house in the City of Chicago and its identical twin in suburban Chicagoland. I assume the amounts of property tax per year would be similar.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by lio45

I assume the amounts of property tax per year would be similar.

Well, what can I tell you, your assumption is wrong. City property taxes are less, even for similar homes.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

in st louis, my property taxes are 3-4x higher in an old suburb vs what they were in the city.

Can you state both of these in absolute figures though?

As I like to point out as an example... when the City of Sherbrooke "halved" my taxes in 2010 (because everything in the city had doubled in value since the last tax roll), I still paid the exact same amounts as before for the same buildings (perfectly normal: the city still cost about the same to run per year as before).

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Well, what can I tell you, your assumption is wrong. City property taxes are less, even for similar homes.

Okay, but by how much? I'd be very surprised if it was by a lot. I mean, it's not possible that satellite municipalities would have much higher proportional spending. Overall, it should be pretty similar (more spending on things like miles of roads and miles of sewers per capita, probably less spending on services like libraries, museums, social services/anything crime related, etc.)

edit - just noticed that Vlajos pointed out his relatives in Elgin pay ~17% less property tax than he does in Chicago per year. Anecdotal, sure, but I'm not surprised...

[Northern Light]

Here's a list that includes rate, average price/home value, and average payout in absolute dollars for various GTA (Greater Toronto Area) homes.

http://torontostoreys.com/2018/07/gt...roperty-taxes/

The ranking is by 'rate', and the first (top) three areas are all the City of Toronto proper and all have identical rates, accordingly.

The others are pretty much all municipalities as opposed to arbitrary geographic division of a different kind.

For American readers, basically multiply by .75 or 3/4 to get USD equivalent numbers.

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Well, what can I tell you, your assumption is wrong. City property taxes are less, even for similar homes.

I did some comparisons last night between Chicago (60652...scruff...) and two zips in the burbs and the city of Chicago was significantly cheaper for property taxes.

[Vlajos]

Originally Posted by lio45

Okay, but by how much? I'd be very surprised if it was by a lot. I mean, it's not possible that satellite municipalities would have much higher proportional spending. Overall, it should be pretty similar (more spending on things like miles of roads and miles of sewers per capita, probably less spending on services like libraries, museums, social services/anything crime related, etc.)t

edit - just noticed that Vlajos pointed out his relatives in Elgin pay ~17% less property tax than he does in Chicago per year. Anecdotal, sure, but I'm not surprised...

Correct, but my home is worth 3x more.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by lio45

Can you state both of these in absolute figures though?

As I like to point out as an example... when the City of Sherbrooke "halved" my taxes in 2010 (because everything in the city had doubled in value since the last tax roll), I still paid the exact same amounts as before for the same buildings (perfectly normal: the city still cost about the same to run per year as before).

i’d estimate that the property taxes for a similarly valued house are around 2X what they would be in the city, i’d have to look but its based on what i paid for a smaller house in the city during the recession and then estimating the increased values since. the city is slow with the tax assessments in a good way...like decades. the county assessor has been to my house at least like 2 -3 times since i bought it in ‘16.

the city has an earnings tax and county doesnt, but everyone pays the earnings tax and the increase in property taxes more than exceeds that. water is privatized and metered and much more expensive, lawn bags require city “stamps” that you have to buy at the grocery store while in the city proper theres giant green dumpsters for yard waste included with the garbage bill which is much lower...theres more hands in my pockets now.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Vlajos

Correct, but my home is worth 3x more.

But that's totally irrelevant. Your house doesn't use 3x the amount of water, sewer, garbage collection, recycling, etc. than it would if it were instead in Elgin; it doesn't require 3x the police, fire protection coverage than it would if it were instead in Elgin.

Those services are a bit cheaper in Elgin than in Chicago, as I would have expected. The result is that an Elgin yearly property tax bill is somewhat lower than a Chicago yearly property tax bill.

[McBane]

How did this turn into a discussion about Chicago's real estate taxes? I mean, does it matter? Municipalities will get you one way or another. Philly has low property taxes but a job killing wage tax, an added sales tax (above the state level), and a bevvy of other taxes and fees. However you dice it, the government will get their money.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by lio45

The result is that an Elgin yearly property tax bill is somewhat lower than a Chicago yearly property tax bill.

but it's not.

my cousin and I each own homes of similar value.

mine is in the city, his is in elgin.

his property tax bill is ~$5,000/year higher than mine.

i don't know how things work up in canada, but here in chicagoland property taxes are based on the value of a given property. the higher the value of the property, the higher the taxes are.

so when we have two properties of similar value, but one of those properties is paying 60% more in taxes, then we can say that property has higher property taxes.

Originally Posted by McBane

How did this turn into a discussion about Chicago's real estate taxes?

someone said that property taxes are always lower in suburbia.

and i said that's not typically the case in chicagoland.

and then lio refused to accept that reality here.

[Vlajos]

Originally Posted by lio45

But that's totally irrelevant. Your house doesn't use 3x the amount of water, sewer, garbage collection, recycling, etc. than it would if it were instead in Elgin; it doesn't require 3x the police, fire protection coverage than it would if it were instead in Elgin.

Those services are a bit cheaper in Elgin than in Chicago, as I would have expected. The result is that an Elgin yearly property tax bill is somewhat lower than a Chicago yearly property tax bill.

If my home at it's value was located in Elgin my tax bill would be 2.5x what I pay in Chicago. In Illinois real estate taxes are based on a % of home value.