Is Philadelphia the ultimate suburb?

[Shawn]

Does the Census take local sentiment into account with CSA definitions, in addition to the commuter threshold requirements? Boston and Providence actively promote being a single greater market, Mass and RI work quite closely on regional transit (the MBTA Commuter Providence Line is the busiest commuter line in the whole system and ends at TF Green International), and there is zero “anti-Boston” sentiment in Providence or anywhere in Rhode Island for that matter. I mean, they have more Dunkins, Cumby’s, and Papa Gino’s, and Honey Dews per capita than we do.

I could never imagine Greater Philly ever viewing NYC in the same friendly, favorable way in which Providence and Rhode Island view Boston.

[Jelly Roll]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Keep in mind too, none of this includes New Jersey Transit numbers. New Jersey transit serves both the NYC MSA and the Philly MSA on the Jersey side (obviously) of each city's respective metro.

These ridership numbers for Philly area Amtrak could be slightly lessened by people opting to take NJ Transit in NYC as well instead of Amtrak as a cheaper albeit longer alternative.

Princeton junction is a popular station for people going to NYC from Upper Bucks. It has around 7,000 daily riders to NYC.

I am glad that this thread got the responses that it did. Suburb does seem to be the wrong word but this is an interesting topic. Just to think that during the war of 1812 the richest American was a banker that lived in Philadelphia. After he died his wealth and banking infrastructure moved to NYC. Wharton business school is consistently ranked as the top or one of the top business schools in the country. Most graduates go to work in NYC.

I think NYC has benefited from Philadelphia over the last 150 years. I think Philadelphia is going to be the benefactor over the next 150.

[wanderer34]

Originally Posted by Quixote

That would be DC/Baltimore, which is rapidly closing in on supplanting Chicago for #3. That's pretty crazy to think about.

Here are the 2017 CSA population counts:

NYC: 23,876,155
LA: 18,788,800
Chicago: 9,901,711
DC: 9,764,315
SF: 8,837,789
Boston: 8,233,270
Dallas: 7,846,293
Philadelphia: 7,206,807

If it weren't for NYC's proximity and dominance, Ocean County, NJ (597,943), and PA counties like Lehigh (366,494), Northampton (303,405), and Carbon (63,853) would be part of the Delaware Valley. These places are geographically closer to Philadelphia, and culturally speaking, probably identify more with Philly than NYC (especially since the PA counties are in the same state). That would bump Philly up to 8,538,502.

I heard the Census Bureau took out the Lehigh Valley out of the NYC CSA, so the Lehigh Valley, for now, is it's own CSA.

[PhillyRising]

Originally Posted by summersm343

This is an interesting discussion, and there are stats on this topic. To take it easy on my brain, I'm doing MSA only

Massachusetts/New Hampshire (Bostons MSA) - Top City Pairs by Ridership 2017
**Only included the main Boston Amtrak Stations IN the city, or the ones in the MSA going to NYC**

1. Boston to NYC
2. Boston Back Bay to NYC
3. Route 128 to NYC
4. Boston to Providence
5. Boston North to Portland
6. Boston to Stamford
7. Boston Back Bay to Providence
8. Boston North to Exeter
9. Boston to New Haven
10. Boston North to Wells


Massachusetts/New Hampshire (Boston MSA) - Station Ridership Numbers 2017

Boston - 1,542,975
Boston Back Bay - 618,101
Route 128 - 442,406
Boston North - 432,818
Exeter - 84,215
Dover - 59,059
Durham - 58,803
Haverhill - 44,827
Woburn - 18,953
Framingham - 1,954

Total Boston MSA Ridership: 3,304,111

https://www.railpassengers.org/site/...es/1194/ma.pdf
https://www.railpassengers.org/site/...es/1202/nh.pdf


Pennsylvania/Delaware/New Jersey (Philadelphia MSA) - Top City Pairs by Ridership 2017
**Only included the main Philly Amtrak Stations IN the city, or the ones in the MSA going to NYC**

PA
1. Philadelphia to NYC
2. Philadelphia to Washington DC
5. Philadelphia to Baltimore
7. Philadelphia to Newark, NJ
9. Paoli to NYC
10. Philadelphia to BWI Airport

DE
1. Wilmington to NYC
5. Wilmington to Newark, NJ
7. Wilmington to Metropark, NJ

NJ
3. Trenton to NYC (station technically in NYC CSA, but at least half of the ridership is from Philly MSA residents)


Pennsylvania/New Jersey/Delaware (Philly MSA) - Station Ridership Numbers 2017

Philadelphia - 4,340,135
Wilmington - 679,758
Paoli - 216,048
Exton - 149,744
Downingtown - 86,806
Ardmore - 65,882
Parkesburg - 44,568
Coatesville - 17,770
Newark, DE - 13,614
Cornwells Heights - 3,073
North Philadelphia - 1,037

Total Philadelphia MSA Ridership: 5,618,435

https://www.railpassengers.org/site/...es/1211/pa.pdf
https://www.railpassengers.org/site/...es/1181/de.pdf

For Philly, there is also:
Trenton - 430,952 riders

One could reasonably count HALF of these riders as Philadelphia MSA residents. Trenton is directly across the river from Bucks County, PA, which is the Philly MSA, but Trenton is in Mercer County, NJ, which is technically the NYC CSA. A lot of people who live in Bucks County commute to NYC and the surrounding area for work, but live in Bucks County for the lower taxes.

https://www.railpassengers.org/site/...es/1203/nj.pdf

I just took Amtrak from Exton to New York last Sunday. Id say 50 of us boarded that mid morning train at Exton. The train was then packed from 30th Street on to New York.

In fact, on Sunday we can only take Amtrak because for some reason SEPTA doesn't think Exton doesn't warrant Sunday service despite the station sitting right next to the junction of 100 and the 30 bypass that carries a lot of traffic. They want everyone to go to Malvern which is harder to get to.

BTW....waiting for a train connection in Penn Station is a miserable experience. If I didn't have luggage and a backpack to haul I would have just walked around Manhattan for a few hours. I didn't see a place where you could store luggage for a while.

[M II A II R II K]

Could Philadelphia become a bedroom community when eventually it’s convenient to commute back and forth in less than an hour. Or if not a bedroom community at least give Philadelphia a boost.

[Antares41]

Originally Posted by M II A II R II K

Could Philadelphia become a bedroom community when eventually it’s convenient to commute back and forth in less than an hour. Or if not a bedroom community at least give Philadelphia a boost.

The simple answer is it would increase the likelihood dramatically, which would help both cities and the communities service by say high speed rail on the order of what exist in Japan for example. But, I wouldn't hold my breath... that's decades away, if it ever happens at all.

[CaliNative]

1. NYC had the better harbor, right on the Atlantic. Philly's harbor is many tens of miles inland from the Atlantic on the Delaware River estuary.

2. NYC had the Mohawk Valley connection between the Hudson & Great Lakes , which allowed for the Erie canal & later almost at grade railroads to the Great Lakes & west. Philly had the Allegheny mountains to the west, which made canals almost impossible & railroads slower & more costly.

3. NYC had the Dutch, Philly had the Quakers. I like Quakers, but the Dutch were the better businessmen.
That being said, Philly is a great city & is coming back bigtime. A lot of my family lives there. Philly is the antithesis of suburb. It is a big city in every way.