Vancouver Downtown Streetcar | Proposed

[officedweller]

Article from Metro newspaper:

http://metronews.ca/news/vancouver/1...-olympic-line/

[spm2013]

A comment in that article and previously mentioned.

"The article fails to mention the streetcar wire that ran along above the track was stolen by scrap metal thieves earlier this year. That theft was a large nail in the coffin of that line ever getting up and running again"

[officedweller]

If they are trying to raise funds to extend the track through the Olympic Village, that would necessarily include the stringing on new wires for the extension - so stringing extra replacement wire for the existing section shouldn't be fatal to the project.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by city-dweller

Took me a while to find this draft capital plan
p.61 of Appendix B (7/10)

*drives me nuts when people don't link their sources.

Thanks for checking that out.

I wonder if "portions of the old historic railway" is actually the defunct area that was partially removed along Quebec. To make way for Concord's development and potential re-alignment of the streetcar path.

[MIPS]

Most likely.
There's a whole dead length of track almost in front of Science World.

[WarrenC12]

The simplest explanation is usually the correct one. Maybe people can take off their tinfoil hats now.

[spm2013]

How much would it cost to rip out and re-pave that section of Quebec Street rail?

[WarrenC12]

How dead is this project? Does anybody think it's a possibility if the transit referendum passes? I can see it being of interest but left off the official plan so as not to frame the vote as too Vancouver-centric.

[Large Cat]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

How dead is this project? Does anybody think it's a possibility if the transit referendum passes? I can see it being of interest but left off the official plan so as not to frame the vote as too Vancouver-centric.

I have no idea whether it's totally dead or not but I'm glad you bumped the thread, since I love the idea

I really want them to do a Cordova/Granville-Seawall-Granville Island-Arbutus Line, all the way down to Marine Dr. Station, and then if that works a Granville-Robson-Denman-Davie-Granville line starting in the same place, to replace the 5/6 buses.

Or maybe if going down Arbutus isn't possible yet, simply loop the seawall streetcar around across the Burrard St. Bridge and back along Granville to Waterfront Station. But it would be great to also have an Arbutus Bikeway/Streetcar combo. How sick that would be.

Dreams. lol

EDIT: And omg it would be so cool to have the streetcar run past Marine Dr. along Kent and through Fraserlands/Big Bend all the way to 22nd St. Station. That would be sick. So much better than riding the 100 bus, plus integrated with both Marine Dr. and the new riverfront developments.

[theKB]

Originally Posted by Large Cat

I have no idea whether it's totally dead or not but I'm glad you bumped the thread, since I love the idea

I really want them to do a Cordova/Granville-Seawall-Granville Island-Arbutus Line, all the way down to Marine Dr. Station, and then if that works a Granville-Robson-Denman-Davie-Granville line starting in the same place, to replace the 5/6 buses.

Or maybe if going down Arbutus isn't possible yet, simply loop the seawall streetcar around across the Burrard St. Bridge and back along Granville to Waterfront Station. But it would be great to also have an Arbutus Bikeway/Streetcar combo. How sick that would be.

Dreams. lol

EDIT: And omg it would be so cool to have the streetcar run past Marine Dr. along Kent and through Fraserlands/Big Bend all the way to 22nd St. Station. That would be sick. So much better than riding the 100 bus, plus integrated with both Marine Dr. and the new riverfront developments.

Those are all pretty good ideas and would add a lot to the city!

I could see throwing a streetcar down robson and actually closing it to all vehicle traffic to make it more european. (IMO closing granville and robson downtown would be interesting paired with the removal of the separated bike lanes)

[s211]

Originally Posted by Large Cat

I have no idea whether it's totally dead or not but I'm glad you bumped the thread, since I love the idea

I really want them to do a Cordova/Granville-Seawall-Granville Island-Arbutus Line, all the way down to Marine Dr. Station, and then if that works a Granville-Robson-Denman-Davie-Granville line starting in the same place, to replace the 5/6 buses.

Or maybe if going down Arbutus isn't possible yet, simply loop the seawall streetcar around across the Burrard St. Bridge and back along Granville to Waterfront Station. But it would be great to also have an Arbutus Bikeway/Streetcar combo. How sick that would be.

Dreams. lol

EDIT: And omg it would be so cool to have the streetcar run past Marine Dr. along Kent and through Fraserlands/Big Bend all the way to 22nd St. Station. That would be sick. So much better than riding the 100 bus, plus integrated with both Marine Dr. and the new riverfront developments.

When the touted benefits are reduced to "cool" and "sick", what more need be said?

[Henbo]

This project isn't dead

Right now the city is focusing all of their effort on Broadway because they're worried if they bring up this project (which is much less expensive), a higher level of government could choose to fund the streetcar over the Broadway corridor. Then the city would be pushed even further back in getting funding for their #1 priority.

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by Large Cat

I really want them to do a Cordova/Granville-Seawall-Granville Island-Arbutus Line, all the way down to Marine Dr. Station, and then if that works a Granville-Robson-Denman-Davie-Granville line starting in the same place.

This is EXACTLY what I have been thinking to myself. That Downtown loop should also be a free service like for example in Melbourne. It would boost Downtown livelyhood and people movement so much.

Robson would definitely need to be made tram-only pedestrian area. That would be the way this would be implemented in Europe.

If there would be a tram running from Granville Island to Downtown, I would 1) go to Granville Island a lot more often and b) really consider moving to Olympic Village.

[SFUVancouver]

Originally Posted by Large Cat

EDIT: And omg it would be so cool to have the streetcar run past Marine Dr. along Kent and through Fraserlands/Big Bend all the way to 22nd St. Station. That would be sick. So much better than riding the 100 bus, plus integrated with both Marine Dr. and the new riverfront developments.

There is such amazing long-term potential for a massive streetcar/LRT circuit that scoots along SEFC, past Granville Island, runs through Kits and along the Arbutus Corridor on the CPR tracks that also parallel Marine Drive heading east, which connects with the Canada Line at Cambie. From there it would continue east through the East Fraser Lands development and then divert off of the CPR tracks to the northeast along Byrne Road and then Southridge Drive to an Edmonds Station.

If we want to veer into 'transit fantasy' land, that streetcar/LRT could even continue up Griffiths Drive to Kingsway, run northwest on Kingsway to Willingdon, and then north along Willingdon, past BCIT and Brentwood Town Centre to Hastings. There it would hang a left and run down Hastings to Columbia Street in the DTES/Chinatown/Gastown area, then south along Columbia St, which changes into Quebec St and then it would turn west onto 1st Avenue in SEFC, thus completing a massive 45km loop of Vancouver and Burnaby with high-quality rail transit that links numerous Regional Town Centres, growing brownfield redevelopments, major commercial streets, and provides new connections between the three SkyTrain lines.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by Large Cat

EDIT: And omg it would be so cool to have the streetcar run past Marine Dr. along Kent and through Fraserlands/Big Bend all the way to 22nd St. Station. That would be sick. So much better than riding the 100 bus, plus integrated with both Marine Dr. and the new riverfront developments.

That's totally conceivable - just not until the density warrants it.
The Marine Drive route was studied in connection with the Evergreen Line southeast corridor - but it would have been a DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) LRT rather than an electric streetcar LRT.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by Henbo

This project isn't dead

Right now the city is focusing all of their effort on Broadway because they're worried if they bring up this project (which is much less expensive), a higher level of government could choose to fund the streetcar over the Broadway corridor. Then the city would be pushed even further back in getting funding for their #1 priority.

This is my hunch as well. It seemed to be a popular idea, even in Vission, in the run up to the Olympics. Gregor even praised the Olympic line, and it was a huge success.

But it was a different time back then. The Canada Line was being built, and the prospects of a Broadway line seemed like a sure thing afterwards. Vancouver was free to talk about other transit opportunities as a Millennium line extension was probably going to be next (or second). The streetcar had a dedicated page on the city website, and they helped the DHR. There was a plan ready to go and 1st was built with the median needed.

Then Translink released a study. It included LRT options. And Vancouver was surprised.

As much as Vancouver wants (basically) LRT, it is on less busy streets serving under served areas. I think the city planners dread the idea of planning around a Broadway LRT. Widening the street and dealing with significantly reduced vehicle capacity on THE major east-west road through the city by redirecting traffic to other roads is something they don't want to deal with.

But it looks like they are ok with the idea of it, because they want LRT already through downtown.

So they buried the streetcar idea. I think it is silly, but I can see a lot of people being confused as to why Vancouver wants LRT on one route, but not another, when it could all be done for less cost than Skytrain to Arbutus. But they don't see the larger implications or other costs the city would have to deal with.

So the city pretends there is no Streetcar plan because they really badly want the Millennium line extended, no exceptions, on Broadway. No distractions until that is done.

So hopefully we get the Millennium line extension, and then the streetcar plans can be resurrected. Hopefully the city doesn't go so far into pretending it doesn't exist by selling off the ROW reserved for it, or tearing up the wide median on 1st.

There might be even more need for it with more people entering the city core by transit on the Broadway line and looking for improved and reliable local service. With the low dollar probably lasting the next few years I can see tourism in the city sharply increase again. A line servicing the major destinations from the park to Granville Island will look like an even better idea.

[aberdeen5698]

A downtown LRT will have to operate in mixed traffic just like the streetcars in most parts of Toronto. That robs LRT of any advantage it might have over buses. Even the greater capacity of LRT vehicles can be largely provided through articulated buses if need be. And buses have far, far less capital cost.

With transit funds so hard to come by there are, IMHO, far better ways to spend the money that would otherwise be required to build an LRT line.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

A downtown LRT will have to operate in mixed traffic just like the streetcars in most parts of Toronto. That robs LRT of any advantage it might have over buses. Even the greater capacity of LRT vehicles can be largely provided through articulated buses if need be. And buses have far, far less capital cost.

With transit funds so hard to come by there are, IMHO, far better ways to spend the money that would otherwise be required to build an LRT line.

This. Streetcars are pretty buses that cost a lot and don't provide actual transportation benefits. For local transit: buses. For rapid transit: SkyTrain. I'd oppose almost any streetcar line proposed, save for maybe the Olympic Line between Granville Island and Olympic Village Station.

[SOSS]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

This. Streetcars are pretty buses that cost a lot and don't provide actual transportation benefits. For local transit: buses. For rapid transit: SkyTrain. I'd oppose almost any streetcar line proposed, save for maybe the Olympic Line between Granville Island and Olympic Village Station.

I'm glad this topic is not in the public spectrum and being discussed at the city level. It would distract people and potentially the province too.

As for the technology; I'd say a proper BRT route (not the local version, but the true version) would be cheaper in capital, more flexible in usage and likely the operational costs would be less too. Really nice buses dedicated to this line would be quieter too. Rail would mean service yard too. Whereas buses could be driven to an existing yard.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by SOSS

I'm glad this topic is not in the public spectrum and being discussed at the city level. It would distract people and potentially the province too.

As for the technology; I'd say a proper BRT route (not the local version, but the true version) would be cheaper in capital, more flexible in usage and likely the operational costs would be less too. Really nice buses dedicated to this line would be quieter too. Rail would mean service yard too. Whereas buses could be driven to an existing yard.

I'm glad this is out of the public eye too. I have enough anti-LRT thoughts about Surrey to have to worry about downtown too

What corridor do you envision the BRT on, the Olympic Line? I am much more supportive of BRT than LRT (due to its feasability to be demolished for conversion to SkyTrain; LRT would never be converted to SkyTrain) but on this corridor I think an LRT would be OK considering it has its own right-of-way and doesn't have any crossings with major (or any?) streets. Although my ideal fantasy would be for this to also be SkyTrain (it could even be at-grade) which would then go underground as a phase 2 to Main Street Station and into the downtown peninsula along the planned streetcar route. I think we need better access to rapid transit in the peninsula in general. But I know that it's really not needed right now at all especially with the costs involved. If it's kept streetcar only, I'd support it to Olympic Village station, Main Street Station max, and that's it. In the peninsula, a streetcar would cost be a high capital cost for no real transportation benefit.

As far as BRT goes, I am a big fan as it's not as "permanent" as LRT and as such it could be upgraded to a better service when needed, unlike LRT which would never be upgraded because of the much higher cost involved. I'd even rather it not be as fancy as Ottawa's system: I think regular bus lanes on the sides of the street with small, Portland LRT like stations would be fine. Kind of like what the 99 B-Line has right now. I mean if you think about it, a bus in a bus only lane is basically the same thing as LRT in its own lanes, just not on rails. I think this sort of set up should be done for anything we call a B-Line, as it would help travel times a lot and make the brand stand out even more.